Future Club Training Gliders

..

Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a
low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider
(assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)...

Kirk

Ok....I'll start.........on a tail dragger glider.... landing "ever
so slightly" tail first touch down is a good thing..........if the
approach is stable, and the sink rate is reasonable at touch
down..........by touching the tail first, the main gear will come to
the ground next, lowering the angle of attack on the wing, making it
not likely for the glider to "bounce".

Landing slightly tail first will also indicate that the glider is in
the "low energy" state.....i.e. as slow as practical..(not as slow as
possible, just as slow as practical)

Landing slightly tail first should not put any undue stress on the
airframe, tailwheel/skid etc, because the "weight" at the tail is very
light..........the CG is far forward of the tail...........the glider
will soon settle (softly) on the main gear, where the majority of the
weight is taken by the robust structure / shock absorber etc
there.....

Note............this technique does not mean ....get close to the
ground and jerk the stick back......this would cause the tail to slam
into the ground with consideral impact......not good.

Landing tail high in a taildragger glider is not a good
thing........It indicates excess speed.......since the CG is behind
the main gear, there is a tendancy of the tail to drop after main
touch down, increasing the angle of attack, and possibly resulting in
a "bounce".

Yes, a "wheel type" landing can be done successfully in a taildragger
glider, but in requires a slight stick forward pressure after touch
down to prevent bouncing, (by lowering the angle of attack.....) and
excessive speed, onger ground roll etc.

Landing tail first in a nose dragger glider is not a good
thing.................

Landing tail first in a nose dragger will result in the main gear next
touching down, but since the CG is in FRONT of this wheel, the
tendancy is for the glider to continue to pitch forward (nose down)
and contact the skid /nosewheel immediately..........as I mentioned
earlier, the nose wheel or skid is not a "landing gear"......


IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" (slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........

Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, ASK-21, Grob 103......


This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"




Cookie

On Sep 18, 8:23*pm, "
wrote:
.



Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a
low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider
(assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)...

Kirk

Ok....I'll start.........on a tail dragger glider.... landing *"ever
so slightly" tail first touch down is a good thing..........if the
approach is stable, and the sink rate is reasonable at touch
down..........by touching the tail first, the main gear will come to
the ground next, lowering the angle of attack on the wing, making it
not likely for the glider to "bounce".

Landing slightly tail first will also indicate that the glider is in
the "low energy" state.....i.e. as slow as practical..(not as slow as
possible, just as slow as practical)

Landing slightly tail first should not put any undue stress on the
airframe, tailwheel/skid etc, because the "weight" at the tail is very
light..........the CG is far forward of the tail...........the glider
will soon settle (softly) on the main gear, where the majority of the
weight is taken by the robust structure / shock absorber etc
there.....

Note............this technique does not mean ....get close to the
ground and jerk the stick back......this would cause the tail to slam
into the ground with consideral impact......not good.

Landing tail high in a taildragger glider is not a good
thing........It indicates excess speed.......since the CG is behind
the main gear, there is a tendancy of the tail to drop after main
touch down, increasing the angle of attack, and possibly resulting in
a *"bounce".

Yes, a "wheel type" landing can be done successfully in a taildragger
glider, but in requires a slight stick forward pressure after touch
down to prevent bouncing, (by lowering the angle of attack.....) * and
excessive speed, onger ground roll etc.

Landing tail first in a nose dragger glider is not a good
thing.................

Landing tail first in a nose dragger will result in the main gear next
touching down, but since the CG is in FRONT of this wheel, the
tendancy is for the glider to continue to pitch forward (nose down)
and contact the skid /nosewheel immediately..........as I mentioned
earlier, the nose wheel or skid is not a "landing gear"......

IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" *(slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........

Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, *ASK-21, Grob 103......

This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"

Cookie

Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.

On Sep 19, 7:30*am, bildan wrote:
On Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.


What? Do you guys actually fly K-21s and G-103s? Is that what you
teach your students? No wonder the Euros think we are a bunch of
buffoons!

Disgustedly,

66

On Sep 19, 10:16*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 19, 7:30*am, bildan wrote:

On Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.

What? *Do you guys actually fly K-21s and G-103s? *Is that what you
teach your students? *No wonder the Euros think we are a bunch of
buffoons!

Disgustedly,

66

You obviously misunderstood something I wrote. Yes, I have lots of
time in those gliders and they do get landed slightly tail low - with
the tail wheel an inch or two lower than the main wheel. It causes no
problems and the landing is a little lower energy than a "two point"
touchdown. In an off field landing, I'd probably have the tail a lot
lower than that.

On Sep 19, 10:05*am, bildan wrote:
On Sep 19, 10:16*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:30*am, bildan wrote:

On Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.

What? *Do you guys actually fly K-21s and G-103s? *Is that what you
teach your students? *No wonder the Euros think we are a bunch of
buffoons!

Disgustedly,

66

You obviously misunderstood something I wrote. *Yes, I have lots of
time in those gliders and they do get landed slightly tail low - with
the tail wheel an inch or two lower than the main wheel. *It causes no
problems and the landing is a little lower energy than a "two point"
touchdown. *In an off field landing, I'd probably have the tail a lot
lower than that.

I apologize for getting a bit testy, it was uncalled for.

I think we are all arguing around the same basic concept; sometimes
explaining those concepts can be challenging.

Cheers,

Kirk

On Sep 19, 12:16*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 19, 7:30*am, bildan wrote:

On Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.

What? *Do you guys actually fly K-21s and G-103s? *Is that what you
teach your students? *No wonder the Euros think we are a bunch of
buffoons!

Disgustedly,

66

Tell us how you and the "eruos" land a Grob or ASK????

Tell us how this would be different than a proper 2-33 landing????

Cookie

On Sep 19, 10:30*am, bildan wrote:
On Sep 18, 8:23*pm, "





wrote:
.

Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a
low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider
(assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)...

Kirk

Ok....I'll start.........on a tail dragger glider.... landing *"ever
so slightly" tail first touch down is a good thing..........if the
approach is stable, and the sink rate is reasonable at touch
down..........by touching the tail first, the main gear will come to
the ground next, lowering the angle of attack on the wing, making it
not likely for the glider to "bounce".

Landing slightly tail first will also indicate that the glider is in
the "low energy" state.....i.e. as slow as practical..(not as slow as
possible, just as slow as practical)

Landing slightly tail first should not put any undue stress on the
airframe, tailwheel/skid etc, because the "weight" at the tail is very
light..........the CG is far forward of the tail...........the glider
will soon settle (softly) on the main gear, where the majority of the
weight is taken by the robust structure / shock absorber etc
there.....

Note............this technique does not mean ....get close to the
ground and jerk the stick back......this would cause the tail to slam
into the ground with consideral impact......not good.

Landing tail high in a taildragger glider is not a good
thing........It indicates excess speed.......since the CG is behind
the main gear, there is a tendancy of the tail to drop after main
touch down, increasing the angle of attack, and possibly resulting in
a *"bounce".

Yes, a "wheel type" landing can be done successfully in a taildragger
glider, but in requires a slight stick forward pressure after touch
down to prevent bouncing, (by lowering the angle of attack.....) * and
excessive speed, onger ground roll etc.

Landing tail first in a nose dragger glider is not a good
thing.................

Landing tail first in a nose dragger will result in the main gear next
touching down, but since the CG is in FRONT of this wheel, the
tendancy is for the glider to continue to pitch forward (nose down)
and contact the skid /nosewheel immediately..........as I mentioned
earlier, the nose wheel or skid is not a "landing gear"......

IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" *(slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........

Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, *ASK-21, Grob 103......

This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"

Cookie

Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yes....agreed......After I gave some thought to my post, I realized I
should have included that ..........

But not in a 2-33 as a tail first laniding in a 2-33 is in my opinion
under the category of too slow.........this is due to the shape of the
33's belly and tail.......(bulbous belly and high tail).


Cookie

than a couple of inches low.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yes....agreed......After I gave some thought to my post, I realized I
should have included that ..........

But not in a 2-33 as a tail first laniding in a 2-33 is in my opinion
under the category of too slow.........this is due to the shape of the
33's belly and tail.......(bulbous belly and high tail).


Cookie

You are being ironic I hope. How can a glider touchdown be "Too slow"?
We are not talking about a tail down attitude at height but rather to
arrive at the point where the main wheel and tailwheel touch the ground
together, (a couple of millimetres either way is acceptable) in effect the
stalling angle is reached just before the glider contacts the ground giving
the minimum touchdown velocity with a minimum ground run. If you do not
understand why this could be important then perhaps your intention was not
irony.

On Sep 18, 7:23*pm, "
wrote:

IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" *(slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........

Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, *ASK-21, Grob 103......

This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"

Cookie

Agree on most, but disagree on K-21s and G-103s - their nose wheel is
not the same as a nose skid, and they should be landed tail and main
simultaneously, just like a taildragger. Reason? Look at the
achievable angle of attack in the taildown attitude, between a 2-33
and a G-103. Tail low in a 2-33 is a significant angle of attack,
nice and slow, but with the tailwheel still well off the ground. Tail
low in a G-103, with the tailwheel not touching the gound, is going to
be really fast!

Kirk

On Sep 19, 12:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 7:23*pm, "

wrote:
IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" *(slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........

Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, *ASK-21, Grob 103......

This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"

Cookie

Agree on most, but disagree on K-21s and G-103s - their nose wheel is
not the same as a nose skid, and they should be landed tail and main
simultaneously, just like a taildragger. *Reason? *Look at the
achievable angle of attack in the taildown attitude, between a 2-33
and a G-103. *Tail low in a 2-33 is a significant angle of attack,
nice and slow, but with the tailwheel still well off the ground. *Tail
low in a G-103, with the tailwheel not touching the gound, is going to
be really fast!

Kirk

Basically I agree...........2-33 tail wheel does not touch first, (in
fact not a t all) but it must be low tail, high nose, low energy.

Grob tail should also be low, but it just can't go as low as a 2-33
due to fuselage shape, so two point touch down is about as low as the
tail can get.....slight tail first touch down is also good, as it is
slower yet.........

But touching the tail first in a grob, with considerable sink rate
results in the following....

Tail touches, main touches, forward fof main CG pushes nose wheel down
and touches............

This is what I call landing in a heap.........see it all the
time............

Bottom line...........2-33 is landed low energy..........Grob is
landed low energy..........

Properly trained and practiced 2-33 pilot can land a grob
nicely.........

Poorly trained, bad habit 2-33 pilot cannot land a grob nicely (nor
the 2-33)
Cookie