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Future Club Training Gliders



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 20th 10, 01:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 194
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 11:52*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:53*pm, ray conlon wrote:



Having flown a number of different gliders and power planes over the
years, no two of them handle or land the same, different aircraft take
different methods of landing, what works for a Cessna 150 may not do
so well in a Bonanza, or what works in a 2-33 wont wor'k *well in a
Blanik,Lark,ASK21, etc. Thats why we have instructors to work us
throught the transistion. Orvile and Willber were the only guys who
had a valid reson to teach themselves to fly..


Having flown a number of gliders and power planes over the years, they
are all pretty much landed the same - at the slowest possible speed
allowed by the configuration of the landing gear (and the conditions
at hand - for example a strong gusty crosswind may require a different
technique than a calm day on a short field). *It's that gear
configuration that requires different techniques for different
airplanes, not aerodynamics.

That gear configuration is a driving factor in how 2-33s and Blaniks
are landed vs how most modern gliders are landed (I say most because
the PW-5 & 6 may be different, but I have no first hand experience in
those two).

If a student isn't taught the REASON for the specific landing
technique (fixed attitude, slightly tail low, "flown-on" in 2-33s and
Blaniks, due to weak tail vs tail and main at same time, min energy in
glass such as K-21 or G-103) they will probably think that the first
technique they are taught will apply to all future gliders. *That can
get very expensive.

Kirk


2-33 should NOT be "flown on" as you suggest above............

Yes, bottom line is "low energy landing" in ANY aircraft..........Low
energy means "slow"....but not "slow a possible" it means slow as
practical..........this leads to the nuances.

But any glider landed in a low energy configuration will not tear
itself into pieces as the 2-33 trained grob pilot did in the scenerio
referred to in the earlier post.

Thousands of pilots have been properly trained in 2-33 and progress
seccessfully to all kinds of "more advanced" gliders without
issue..........

True that a poorly trained 2-33 pilot, or one who has degenerated into
bad habbits, may take those problems with him into the more advanced
gliders.........but this is a training / pilot problem, not an
aircraft problem. I see plenty of pilots, airplane and glider, who
have developed some bad landing habits and have never set foti n a
2-33.

The 2-33 will withstand less than perfect landings by beginners
because it is designed to do so as a TRAINER. We are all allowed to
make mistakes.........The idea is for the student / instructor to work
out all these problems early in the program. Once consistant good
landings are made in the 2-33 the pilot can then easily adapt to any
glider. If poor landing technique is tolerated in the 2-33 then the
less forgiving gliders will show this defeciency.

But this is all the more arguement for the 2-33 as a trainer, and not
using Grob or ASK as a trainer.......

Cookie

  #2  
Old September 20th 10, 03:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kevin Christner
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Posts: 211
Default Future Club Training Gliders


The 2-33 will withstand less than perfect landings by beginners
because it is designed to do so as a TRAINER. *We are *all allowed to
make mistakes.........The idea is for the student / instructor to work
out all these problems early in the program. Once consistant good
landings are made in the 2-33 the pilot can then easily adapt to any
glider. *If poor landing technique is tolerated in the 2-33 then the
less forgiving gliders will show this defeciency.

But this is all the more arguement for the 2-33 as a trainer, and not
using Grob or ASK as a trainer.......

Cookie


First, I don't see any "argument" there for using the 2-33 as a
trainer. The 2-33 flies differently than just about anything else out
there. Beyond basic stick and rudder skills, it doesn't prepare the
pilot to fly anything else. The rest of the world seems to be able to
use more modern gliders safely and efficiently without regular damage
- they also seem to produce better pilots, at least from world
championship results.

Teaching low energy landings in a 2-33 can be a bit of a trick.
Because the tail is so high relative to the main wheel there is a
tendency to go "ground seeking" with the tail leading to the glider
stalling before the anything touches down and a nice heavy thud.
Hence, very few true low energy landings are taught in a 2-33
(somewhere in the low 30's vs. right around 40). This also doesn't
prepare for proper 2-points - the angle of attack to 2-point being
much lower in a ASK-21 or similar.

Another thread states the 2-33 works fine because eventually *some* go
on to fly glass, *few* go on to fly X-C, and *fewer* fly a contest.
Again this does not address whether the 2-33 properly prepares pilots
for the types of gliders they will likely be flying - even the author
admits that they must first "transition" (translation: retrain) to the
ASK-21. This whole process could just be skipped without the
potential for developing all the sloppy habits that almost come from
pilots trained in 2-33's.

The only "argument" in this either thread is based on price point.
And I won't argue with that one.
  #3  
Old September 21st 10, 01:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ray conlon
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Posts: 60
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 20, 10:42*am, Kevin Christner
wrote:
The 2-33 will withstand less than perfect landings by beginners
because it is designed to do so as a TRAINER. *We are *all allowed to
make mistakes.........The idea is for the student / instructor to work
out all these problems early in the program. Once consistant good
landings are made in the 2-33 the pilot can then easily adapt to any
glider. *If poor landing technique is tolerated in the 2-33 then the
less forgiving gliders will show this defeciency.


But this is all the more arguement for the 2-33 as a trainer, and not
using Grob or ASK as a trainer.......


Cookie


First, I don't see any "argument" there for using the 2-33 as a
trainer. *The 2-33 flies differently than just about anything else out
there. *Beyond basic stick and rudder skills, it doesn't prepare the
pilot to fly anything else. *The rest of the world seems to be able to
use more modern gliders safely and efficiently without regular damage
- they also seem to produce better pilots, at least from world
championship results.

Teaching low energy landings in a 2-33 can be a bit of a trick.
Because the tail is so high relative to the main wheel there is a
tendency to go "ground seeking" with the tail leading to the glider
stalling before the anything touches down and a nice heavy thud.
Hence, very few true low energy landings are taught in a 2-33
(somewhere in the low 30's vs. right around 40). *This also doesn't
prepare for proper 2-points - the angle of attack to 2-point being
much lower in a ASK-21 or similar.

Another thread states the 2-33 works fine because eventually *some* go
on to fly glass, *few* go on to fly X-C, and *fewer* fly a contest.
Again this does not address whether the 2-33 properly prepares pilots
for the types of gliders they will likely be flying - even the author
admits that they must first "transition" (translation: retrain) to the
ASK-21. *This whole process could just be skipped without the
potential for developing all the sloppy habits that almost come from
pilots trained in 2-33's.

The only "argument" in this either thread is based on price point.
And I won't argue with that one.


When only about 4% of the SSA members in this country ever fly in a
contest, the idea of needing high performance trainers seems a bit off
point, those who wish to fly contest, more power too you, the other
96% don't and enjoy or flights just as much.
  #4  
Old September 21st 10, 04:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kevin Christner
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Posts: 211
Default Future Club Training Gliders


When only about 4% of the SSA members in this country ever fly in a
contest, the idea of needing high performance trainers seems a bit off
point, those who wish to fly contest, more power too you, the other
96% don't and enjoy or flights just as much.


Thats not the point thats trying to be made here. Just because
someone doesn't go anywhere doesn't mean they don't need to be
properly prepared to fly the wide range of gliders they can buy and
fly, on their own, with no additional requirement beyond a PPL.

It appears about 60-70% of the CFIG commentators would not recommend
the 2-33 for ab-initio training, and 30%-40% would. Out of the later
group, some seem to like the 2-33 more on price point than on its
training qualities. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, and I
don't think anyone is suggesting you can't have fun flying a 2-33.
That doesn't mean the glider has all the qualities many of us would
like to see, and I think thats the point thats trying to be made.

I think this thread has been hashed out enough. I'm signing off
before more tomatoes fly my way.
 




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