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In article , Emmanuel.Gustin
writes Dave Eadsforth wrote: : Yes, the success of agents like 'Garbo' in feeding duff stuff to the : German High Command was remarkable. The familiar problem, as far as I know: Too many different intelligence services, every one a part of the personal empire of a different Nazi leader, and unwilling or unable to cooperate. And of course the 'Abwehr' leaked like a sieve. The Germans did produce recce versions of fighters, usually with fewer guns and more fuel; in addition to cameras of course. But I suspect the Bf 109 was just less adaptable to the task than the Spitfire. It was even smaller. The Spitfire had inherited a D-shaped leading edge structure from its direct ancestor, the Supermarine 227, which used this as a condensor for its steam-cooled Goshawk engine. This made a great fuel tank for the long-range reconnaissance versions. With better fuel and more powerful engines, these models could also operate at higher weights and reach higher altitudes than Bf 109s. On the other hand Ju 88s were less suitable for reconnaissance than Mosquitoes, because they were bigger and slower. Still, the Germans did develop a high-performance recce aircraft in the Ar 234A. Emmanuel Gustin Thanks for that! Re. the Ar 234A, I believe that this machine made a number of attacks on the UK, but I do not know when. Do you happen to have any rough dates? Also, do you happen to know if the Ar 234 (of any mark) was ever used as a recce machine over the UK prior to D-Day? Cheers, Dave -- Dave Eadsforth |
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In article ,
Dave Eadsforth writes: Re. the Ar 234A, I believe that this machine made a number of attacks on the UK, but I do not know when. Do you happen to have any rough dates? I don't think the Ar 234s made any bombing attacks over the U.K. They were used against targetsin Belgium and France in late 1944. Also, do you happen to know if the Ar 234 (of any mark) was ever used as a recce machine over the UK prior to D-Day? Not prior to D-Day. The Ar 234s available in June/July 1944 were the inital models with a skid landing gear, which used a wheeled trolley for takeoff. Immediately following the Invasion, one or two fo these prototypes were staged to an airfield in France, where a vcertain logistical weakness was discovered - It's no use having a Jet Recce airplane that can stage to a forward airfield in an hour when its takeoff gear and mechanics have to come by truck, through the Allied Fighter-Bomber cover. It took until mid-July to get all the pieces rounded up so that they could fly missions, and by that time, it was a matter of shutting the barn door after the horse was gone. (It turns out that they wouldn't have been able to return any useful intel even if they could have flown sooner. There weren't enough experienced photointerpreters to sort through the pictures, so the turnaround time from flights to intel in the hands of the Staff was on the order of a couple of weeks. Not much use in mobile warfare. If you get a chance, check out Alfred Price's "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe." It's an excellent account of what the state of German Airpower was from just before Normandy until the final collapse. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
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In article , Peter Stickney
writes In article , Dave Eadsforth writes: Re. the Ar 234A, I believe that this machine made a number of attacks on the UK, but I do not know when. Do you happen to have any rough dates? I don't think the Ar 234s made any bombing attacks over the U.K. They were used against targetsin Belgium and France in late 1944. Also, do you happen to know if the Ar 234 (of any mark) was ever used as a recce machine over the UK prior to D-Day? Not prior to D-Day. The Ar 234s available in June/July 1944 were the inital models with a skid landing gear, which used a wheeled trolley for takeoff. I've seen a photo - quite a sight. Immediately following the Invasion, one or two fo these prototypes were staged to an airfield in France, where a vcertain logistical weakness was discovered - It's no use having a Jet Recce airplane that can stage to a forward airfield in an hour when its takeoff gear and mechanics have to come by truck, through the Allied Fighter-Bomber cover. Would it be too awful to suggest that the whole programme was on the skids? It took until mid-July to get all the pieces rounded up so that they could fly missions, and by that time, it was a matter of shutting the barn door after the horse was gone. (It turns out that they wouldn't have been able to return any useful intel even if they could have flown sooner. There weren't enough experienced photointerpreters to sort through the pictures, so the turnaround time from flights to intel in the hands of the Staff was on the order of a couple of weeks. Not much use in mobile warfare. Hmm, no German equivalent of Constance Babington-Smith then? If you get a chance, check out Alfred Price's "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe." It's an excellent account of what the state of German Airpower was from just before Normandy until the final collapse. Would you believe I bought a copy last week? I haven't had time to read it yet - but it's nice to know I have made a good choice! Thanks, Dave -- Dave Eadsforth |
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Dave Eadsforth wrote:
In article , Peter Stickney writes In article , Dave Eadsforth writes: Re. the Ar 234A, I believe that this machine made a number of attacks on the UK, but I do not know when. Do you happen to have any rough dates? I don't think the Ar 234s made any bombing attacks over the U.K. They were used against targetsin Belgium and France in late 1944. Also, do you happen to know if the Ar 234 (of any mark) was ever used as a recce machine over the UK prior to D-Day? Not prior to D-Day. The Ar 234s available in June/July 1944 were the inital models with a skid landing gear, which used a wheeled trolley for takeoff. I've seen a photo - quite a sight. Immediately following the Invasion, one or two fo these prototypes were staged to an airfield in France, where a vcertain logistical weakness was discovered - It's no use having a Jet Recce airplane that can stage to a forward airfield in an hour when its takeoff gear and mechanics have to come by truck, through the Allied Fighter-Bomber cover. Would it be too awful to suggest that the whole programme was on the skids? It took until mid-July to get all the pieces rounded up so that they could fly missions, and by that time, it was a matter of shutting the barn door after the horse was gone. (It turns out that they wouldn't have been able to return any useful intel even if they could have flown sooner. There weren't enough experienced photointerpreters to sort through the pictures, so the turnaround time from flights to intel in the hands of the Staff was on the order of a couple of weeks. Not much use in mobile warfare. Hmm, no German equivalent of Constance Babington-Smith then? If you get a chance, check out Alfred Price's "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe." It's an excellent account of what the state of German Airpower was from just before Normandy until the final collapse. Would you believe I bought a copy last week? I haven't had time to read it yet - but it's nice to know I have made a good choice! I also think it's a great book. John |
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![]() "Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message ... In article , Emmanuel.Gustin writes Dave Eadsforth wrote: : Yes, the success of agents like 'Garbo' in feeding duff stuff to the : German High Command was remarkable. The familiar problem, as far as I know: Too many different intelligence services, every one a part of the personal empire of a different Nazi leader, and unwilling or unable to cooperate. And of course the 'Abwehr' leaked like a sieve. The Germans did produce recce versions of fighters, usually with fewer guns and more fuel; in addition to cameras of course. But I suspect the Bf 109 was just less adaptable to the task than the Spitfire. It was even smaller. The Spitfire had inherited a D-shaped leading edge structure from its direct ancestor, the Supermarine 227, which used this as a condensor for its steam-cooled Goshawk engine. This made a great fuel tank for the long-range reconnaissance versions. With better fuel and more powerful engines, these models could also operate at higher weights and reach higher altitudes than Bf 109s. On the other hand Ju 88s were less suitable for reconnaissance than Mosquitoes, because they were bigger and slower. Still, the Germans did develop a high-performance recce aircraft in the Ar 234A. Emmanuel Gustin Thanks for that! Re. the Ar 234A, I believe that this machine made a number of attacks on the UK, but I do not know when. Do you happen to have any rough dates? Also, do you happen to know if the Ar 234 (of any mark) was ever used as a recce machine over the UK prior to D-Day? Leutnant Erich Somner made the world fist jet reconaisance flight on August 2 1944. in the Arado 234 V7. The V7 indicating that it was the 7th prootype. (V stands for Versuchs or esperimental) which was hurridly adapted to obtain the photorecon of the situation at the Cherbourg Penisuala. He had accomplished more in this mission than the entire luftwaffe did in 2 months. It took 12 photographic interpreters 2 days to produce an intitial report. This revealed that the Allies had landed 1.5 million men. Somner was a test pilot and responsible for having the Lofte 7 bombsight linked into the PDS autopilot. On September 9th Somner conducted a reconaisance mission over London and the Thames estury. On the outward bound leg he came upon a reconaisance Mosquito intent on the same type of mission. As both pilots aircraft were unarmed the pilots simply waved at each other. Somner despite being given orders to fly the reconaisance flight was almost court martialed as unbeknownst to him flying a jet over Britain was strictly forbiden Somners friend the Horst Gotz flew his Fiesler Storch to see Goebells and this may have save hime from the court martial. "Exellent Propaganda" was the comment of Goebells's assisatant. Early Arado 234A used a trolley to take of and skid to land. The Ardo 234B bomber an undercariage and had a fueselage 1 inch wider to accomodate the recessed bomb bay and compensate for fuel loss. The recon Arado was swiched over to an normal undercarriage as the 10 minutes needed to retrieve the aircraft left it too vulnerable to straffing. Bombing raids on the UK would have been possible with a light bomb load and heavier loads with the more developed versions. The Arado had an accurate computing Bomb sight the Lotfe 7 (this was regarded as more accurate than allied sights and it was once recomended that it be copied for the RAF) it also apparently had the EGON blind bombing system (similar to OBOE apparently) and a computing dive bombing sight. The few aircarft to enter service (about 70) were to busy with recon tasks and attacking supply lines to overfly the UK I assume. Nevertheless EGON was probably as accurate as oboe though it is hard to imagine that even a Lotfe 7 would be accurate at the 10,000 meters that would be used over the British isles. Dive bombing had to be done with care as the aircraft lacked dive breaks and in conditions of tension produced by AAA the pilot could easily get in trouble with Mach. The Arado 234 was a pretty aircraft because of its amazing smoothness. It's designer Rudiger Kosin lofted the wing on a computer and rather than rivet the wing on points of equal chord it was riveted at points of equal curvature to produce a wrinkel free su Kosin also invented the crescent wing (as in handley page victor) to overcome the Arado 234s mach limitation. He also invented the Krueger flap. (Krueger was the wind tunnel technican who did the tests) Cheers, Dave -- Dave Eadsforth |
#6
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In article , The
Enlightenment writes "Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message ... In article , Emmanuel.Gustin writes Dave Eadsforth wrote: SNIP of previous detail Also, do you happen to know if the Ar 234 (of any mark) was ever used as a recce machine over the UK prior to D-Day? Leutnant Erich Somner made the world fist jet reconaisance flight on August 2 1944. in the Arado 234 V7. The V7 indicating that it was the 7th prootype. (V stands for Versuchs or esperimental) which was hurridly adapted to obtain the photorecon of the situation at the Cherbourg Penisuala. He had accomplished more in this mission than the entire luftwaffe did in 2 months. It took 12 photographic interpreters 2 days to produce an intitial report. This revealed that the Allies had landed 1.5 million men. Somner was a test pilot and responsible for having the Lofte 7 bombsight linked into the PDS autopilot. On September 9th Somner conducted a reconaisance mission over London and the Thames estury. On the outward bound leg he came upon a reconaisance Mosquito intent on the same type of mission. As both pilots aircraft were unarmed the pilots simply waved at each other. Shades of WWI... Somner despite being given orders to fly the reconaisance flight was almost court martialed as unbeknownst to him flying a jet over Britain was strictly forbiden Somners friend the Horst Gotz flew his Fiesler Storch to see Goebells and this may have save hime from the court martial. "Exellent Propaganda" was the comment of Goebells's assisatant. Early Arado 234A used a trolley to take of and skid to land. The Ardo 234B bomber an undercariage and had a fueselage 1 inch wider to accomodate the recessed bomb bay and compensate for fuel loss. The recon Arado was swiched over to an normal undercarriage as the 10 minutes needed to retrieve the aircraft left it too vulnerable to straffing. Bombing raids on the UK would have been possible with a light bomb load and heavier loads with the more developed versions. The Arado had an accurate computing Bomb sight the Lotfe 7 (this was regarded as more accurate than allied sights and it was once recomended that it be copied for the RAF) it also apparently had the EGON blind bombing system (similar to OBOE apparently) and a computing dive bombing sight. The few aircarft to enter service (about 70) were to busy with recon tasks and attacking supply lines to overfly the UK I assume. Nevertheless EGON was probably as accurate as oboe though it is hard to imagine that even a Lotfe 7 would be accurate at the 10,000 meters that would be used over the British isles. Dive bombing had to be done with care as the aircraft lacked dive breaks and in conditions of tension produced by AAA the pilot could easily get in trouble with Mach. The Arado 234 was a pretty aircraft because of its amazing smoothness. It's designer Rudiger Kosin lofted the wing on a computer and rather than rivet the wing on points of equal chord it was riveted at points of equal curvature to produce a wrinkel free su Kosin also invented the crescent wing (as in handley page victor) to overcome the Arado 234s mach limitation. He also invented the Krueger flap. (Krueger was the wind tunnel technican who did the tests) A lot of innovation for the period...most impressive. Thanks very much for that rundown - it seems it was quite a machine. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Eadsforth |
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