First Human Powered Ornithopter

In article ,
"Flash60601" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
CaveLamb wrote:

Alan Baker wrote:
In article ,
CaveLamb wrote:

Steve Hix wrote:
In article ,
CaveLamb wrote:

Steve Hix wrote:
In article ,
TonyW wrote:

On 10/6/2010 2:43 AM, wrote:
http://acidcow.com/pics/13751-made-b...ers-23-pics-1-
vid
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Karl
Not the first, it was done 30 years ago, Google Gossamer
Albatross.
GA was prop-driven, not an ornithopter (thrust from wing flapping).

This one doesn't seem to have enough power to take off on its own,
but
enough to
barely maintain level flight.

Mildly creepy looking under weigh; looks like a sailplane with
severe
low-frequency flutter.
This one was not an ornithopter either...
It just LOOKS like one...
How much flapping do you have to do before it's an ornithopter?

Not being able to take off under its own power doesn't help, mind.

Oh, I'd guess - enough for the wings to actually FLAP rather than just
FLEX.

To your mind, what would make it flapping rather than flexing?



No, I'm not interested in a debate on this.

Pick your pony - believe what you want...

So... ...you're just interested in making unsupported pronouncements?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

Alan, I'll be pleased to hear what you have to say on this:
1. At what speed and altitude did the craft release from the auto-tow?.
2.. How far and how long did it fly under its own power until it was no
longer able to maintain that altitude and airspeed?

I don't know the answer to either of them...

....but I'm betting large that CaveLamb doesn't know the answer either.

And simply declaring it's not flapping and the refusing to define his
terms...

Come on.


Would you think that those two questions are pertinent to the discussion?

Of course they're pertinent. I don't know how you want to qualify
successful flight, but it's pretty clearly an ornithopter...

....which is the point I was trying to make.

But if you're interested in its success, you might want to read this:

'The "Snowbird" performed its record-breaking flight on August 2 at the
Great Lakes Gliding Club in Tottenham, Ont., witnessed by the
vice-president (Canada) of the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale
(FAI), the world-governing body for air sports and aeronautical world
records. The official record claim was filed this month, and the FAI is
expected to confirm the ornithopter's world record at its meeting in
October.'

http://www.physorg.com/news204386550.html

It goes on:

'For centuries engineers have attempted such a feat, ever since Leonardo
da Vinci sketched the first human-powered ornithopter in 1485.
But under the power and piloting of Todd Reichert, an Engineering PhD
candidate at the University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies
(UTIAS), the wing-flapping device sustained both altitude and airspeed
for 19.3 seconds, and covered a distance of 145 metres at an average
speed of 25.6 kilometres per hour.'

'sustained both altitude and airspeed' seems to be fairly definitive.


Also, have you any connection with this project at all? (You know,
"Disclaimer", as it were).

Nope. No connection of any kind.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

The op gave us this link...

http://acidcow.com/pics/13751-made-b...s-1-video.html



Which is NOT the same machine as this...

http://www.ornithopter.net/index_e.html

But start he

http://www.ornithopter.net/MediaGallery/Videos/index_e.html

In article ,
CaveLamb wrote:

The op gave us this link...

http://acidcow.com/pics/13751-made-b...s-1-video.html



Yes. That is the human powered machine.


Which is NOT the same machine as this...

http://www.ornithopter.net/index_e.html

But start he

http://www.ornithopter.net/MediaGallery/Videos/index_e.html

It's not the same, because the poster to whom I was replying was asking
about the engine powered ornithopter that had definitely taken off from
a standing start.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

On 10/8/2010 7:37 AM, CaveLamb wrote:
The op gave us this link...

http://acidcow.com/pics/13751-made-b...s-1-video.html




Which is NOT the same machine as this...

http://www.ornithopter.net/index_e.html

But start he

http://www.ornithopter.net/MediaGallery/Videos/index_e.html


I went back and looked at all the pix and video and I think it's nothing
more than a flapping glider. I seriously doubt it would have ever flown
if not towed...

The engine powered one is a great study of what people do with too much
time and money on their hands...

Tony

In article ,
TonyW wrote:

On 10/8/2010 7:37 AM, CaveLamb wrote:
The op gave us this link...

http://acidcow.com/pics/13751-made-b...cs-1-video.htm
l




Which is NOT the same machine as this...

http://www.ornithopter.net/index_e.html

But start he

http://www.ornithopter.net/MediaGallery/Videos/index_e.html


I went back and looked at all the pix and video and I think it's nothing
more than a flapping glider. I seriously doubt it would have ever flown
if not towed...

Apparently, the FAI thinks differently.

http://www.physorg.com/news204386550.html

"But under the power and piloting of Todd Reichert, an Engineering PhD
candidate at the University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies
(UTIAS), the wing-flapping device sustained both altitude and airspeed
for 19.3 seconds, and covered a distance of 145 metres at an average
speed of 25.6 kilometres per hour."


The engine powered one is a great study of what people do with too much
time and money on their hands...

I don't know whether the ability has any practical use or not...

....but then, I'm betting that you don't either... :-)

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

On 10/8/2010 2:16 PM, Alan Baker wrote:

"But under the power and piloting of Todd Reichert, an Engineering PhD
candidate at the University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies
(UTIAS), the wing-flapping device sustained both altitude and airspeed
for 19.3 seconds, and covered a distance of 145 metres at an average
speed of 25.6 kilometres per hour."

I don't think that's far or long enough to prove anything. A light
breeze of a headwind would have done the same.

The engine powered one is a great study of what people do with too much
time and money on their hands...

I don't know whether the ability has any practical use or not...

...but then, I'm betting that you don't either... :-)

That's one thing we can agree on.

BTW, I might have bought human powered if the had towed it with a rope
pulled by the track team but then again, I still think it's a flapping
glider...

Tony

In article ,
TonyW wrote:

On 10/8/2010 2:16 PM, Alan Baker wrote:

"But under the power and piloting of Todd Reichert, an Engineering PhD
candidate at the University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies
(UTIAS), the wing-flapping device sustained both altitude and airspeed
for 19.3 seconds, and covered a distance of 145 metres at an average
speed of 25.6 kilometres per hour."

I don't think that's far or long enough to prove anything. A light
breeze of a headwind would have done the same.

Alas, you are not the arbiter of what is and what is not... ...flight.

:-)


The engine powered one is a great study of what people do with too much
time and money on their hands...

I don't know whether the ability has any practical use or not...

...but then, I'm betting that you don't either... :-)

That's one thing we can agree on.

BTW, I might have bought human powered if the had towed it with a rope
pulled by the track team but then again, I still think it's a flapping
glider...

You can think whatever you like, but if it can maintain airspeed and
altitude...

....that seems like flight to me.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

"Alan Baker" wrote

You can think whatever you like, but if it can maintain airspeed and
altitude...

...that seems like flight to me.

Alan;

I gotta' ask; what dog do you have in this fight?

Why do you argue your point so strongly, to the point of putting down people
that have an opinion that differs from yours?

This seems to be very much a discussion of opinion on a subject

You opining one point of view holds no more weight than Lamb or someone else
spouting their opinion, to me. It isn't as if this is an open and shut
case. They did not make a flight with the basic definition of taking off,
maintaining flight, and returning to a place with the same elevation. Even
early definitions of powered flight with the Wright Brothers had some or all
of these basic definitions.

Yes, they seem to have flown by human power, but only with help to start
the flight.

The flapping shown is a type that I have never seen a bird use. All of the
birds have their wings hinged where they attach to their bodies and these
hinges allow the wing to pivot up and down to initiate flight, and they
usually have a joint out further on their wing that also hinges for
additional power and control... but this man powered creation has none of
those characteristics.

Seems to me that this whole thing was supposed to be imitating nature's
animals methods of flying. That, it does not do, in my opinion. Seems like
it is a way to "cheat" the imitation of flapping creature's flying
methodology.

Please note that this has been expressed as my opinion, and I did not put
anyone else "down" as I presented it, as all civil discussions should strive
to do.

Jim in NC

"TonyW" wrote in message
...


The engine powered one is a great study of what people do with too much
time and money on their hands...

Tony

I kinda think there were some folks in Dayton saying the same thing about a
hundren and ten or so years ago.

Who knows what will come of this. There are bound to be some side-benefits.
.... Eventually.

Flash

Flash

In article ,
"Flash60601" wrote:

"TonyW" wrote in message
...


The engine powered one is a great study of what people do with too much
time and money on their hands...

Tony

I kinda think there were some folks in Dayton saying the same thing about a
hundren and ten or so years ago.

Who knows what will come of this. There are bound to be some side-benefits.
... Eventually.

Flash

Flash

And the Wright's first attempts gained airspeed by sliding down a track
on a hill...

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg