THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply.

Agree, Walt. Bravery and, just as important, mental sharpness both are
exhaustible resources.

Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and ended up
killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or internal drive
to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen died.

The top British nightfighter freely admitted he was shot down and captured
because he was mentally exhausted by too many operational sorties; he "spaced",
made a rookie mistake that nearly got him and his nav killed when they were
caught at low altitude and low airspeed by enemy fighters. (That same sort of
mistake got Duke and Driscoll shot down after the biggest day of their flying
careers, but for different reasons than the Brit nightfighter.)

Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way to find
out who is brave and who is not - its simply a way to expend them like
cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of their
lives.

v/r
Gordon

In message , Krztalizer
writes

Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply.

Agree, Walt. Bravery and, just as important, mental sharpness both are
exhaustible resources.

Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and ended up
killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or internal drive
to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen died.

At the time of the dams raid Gibson was so exhausted and run-down that
he had a large carbuncle on his cheek that made it painful to do up his
oxygen mask.

From what I have read (I have no experience of combat) many writers have
said that every man has a given deposit of courage and endurance. When
the withdrawals exceed the deposit then that's it.
I read of one excellent navigator who, on his first mission over enemy
territory, clung to a spar in terror all the way there and all the way
back. He was removed immediately, of course, but it seems impossible to
predict any individual's reaction to danger.
The poor sod whom Art described was taken too far, but it was
unpredictable.


The top British nightfighter freely admitted he was shot down and captured
because he was mentally exhausted by too many operational sorties; he "spaced",
made a rookie mistake that nearly got him and his nav killed when they were
caught at low altitude and low airspeed by enemy fighters. (That same sort of
mistake got Duke and Driscoll shot down after the biggest day of their flying
careers, but for different reasons than the Brit nightfighter.)

Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way to find
out who is brave and who is not - its simply a way to expend them like
cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of their
lives.

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once,
after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The
toughest of the tough.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "M. J. Powell"

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once,
after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The
toughest of the tough.


It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do in combat
that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once,
after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The
toughest of the tough.

It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do in combat
that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances.

Also, the true test of one's character is judged by what he does when
no one is looking. No Air Medals for Autocollimator appearances.

Mike Marron wrote:
(ArtKramr) wrote:
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television
once, after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant!
The toughest of the tough.

It takes a tough man to cry and there are times when others admire the
person for showing some human emotion!

It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do
in combat that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances.

The trouble with some is that they believe that the Hollywood film industry,
like any other of the other film industries portray life as the real thing.
This is a dangerous thing and you don't get a new game play when dead.

Also, the true test of one's character is judged by what he does when
no one is looking. No Air Medals for Autocollimator appearances.

Richard.

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "M. J. Powell"

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once,
after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The
toughest of the tough.


It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do in combat
that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances.

Sometimes Art, you show positive genius in misunderstanding people.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "M. J. Powell"
Date: 2/4/04 6:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "M. J. Powell"

Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once,
after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The
toughest of the tough.


It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do in combat
that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances.

Sometimes Art, you show positive genius in misunderstanding people.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell


It's one of my strong points.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Sometimes Art, you show positive genius in misunderstanding people.

Mike


It's one of my strong points.


Arthur Kramer

No Art, it's one of your cheap points...you so much want to make
a sharp retort that, even though you perfectly knew what was
meant up thread, you grabbed the 'cheap' opportunity.

It does nothing for your reputation sir. Strange that you'd do
that.
--

-Gord.

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...

Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply.

Agree, Walt. Bravery and, just as important, mental sharpness both
are
exhaustible resources.

No argument with either of those *facts*. There is a breaking point for
anyone,
it's just in different places and triggerable by different events.....

Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and
ended up
killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or
internal drive
to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen
died.

Oh? Actually I thought the mainspar failed in the Mosquito after being
previously
overstressed in a very high G pullout elsewhere? Or am I thinking of
someone else?

snip

Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way
to find
out who is brave and who is not

No, and I wasn't implying anything of the kind. My statement about
courage seems
to have become out of context. IIRC, it was Gibson(?) who said that
there were 2
kinds of courage, the man who simply feels 'it can't/won't happen to
me', perhaps somewhat
unimaginative in that respect, and who is therefore more readily able to
do dangerous things
supposedly without being *really* afraid and the other kind, who *knows*
that it *can* happen to him,
perhaps through seeing just one too many close friends or associates
'get the chop' or just through
being more 'imaginative' BUT still 'carry on' regardless. IIRC, he
considered the second kind the bravest
of the brave. He put himself in the first category. I'm in no position
to argue with him, or indeed anyone
who's 'been there'.

- its simply a way to expend them like
cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of
their
lives.

True enough. I could hypothesise that the first kind could suddenly
lose that belief in their immortality
that seems natural in those under about 30 through constant trauma.
Perhaps enough to make them
unable to carry on in the same way. (As did Art's "Captain Johnson" I
think). That he 'lost his bottle'
as the poms put it, was just one man reaching his breaking point.

The CO

Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and
ended up
killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or
internal drive
to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen
died.

Oh? Actually I thought the mainspar failed in the Mosquito after being
previously
overstressed in a very high G pullout elsewhere? Or am I thinking of
someone else?

He took a navigator up who had never been inside a Mosquito before. There was
little to no pre-flight briefing and the switchology on the fuel system on the
Mosquito, frankly, required a systems expert to operate it all in the dark. At
a point coinciding with fuel starvation on the main tanks, the aircraft "ran
out" of fuel and crashed in the dark, next to a village with many witnesses.
Rumors about the crash persist to this day, but the villagers described the
hapless crew struggling to restart engines as it circled lower and lower,
finally impacting the ground. It was a very odd sound for late at night - a
circling aircraft with engines cutting out, then silence for half a minute
followed by a shattering crash.

Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way
to find
out who is brave and who is not

No, and I wasn't implying anything of the kind. My statement about
courage seems
to have become out of context. IIRC, it was Gibson(?) who said that
there were 2
kinds of courage, the man who simply feels 'it can't/won't happen to
me', perhaps somewhat
unimaginative in that respect, and who is therefore more readily able to
do dangerous things
supposedly without being *really* afraid and the other kind, who *knows*
that it *can* happen to him,
perhaps through seeing just one too many close friends or associates
'get the chop' or just through
being more 'imaginative' BUT still 'carry on' regardless. IIRC, he
considered the second kind the bravest
of the brave. He put himself in the first category. I'm in no position
to argue with him, or indeed anyone
who's 'been there'.

Basil Embry, #1 bad ass of the RAF, agreed and used almost the exact wording.
"Chop rate" gives me the willies - the stoicism displayed by the Bomber Command
boys during the bloody period between 1940 to 1942 far exceeds my own; right up
there with the USN's torpedo bomber crews of 1942...

- its simply a way to expend them like
cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of
their
lives.

True enough. I could hypothesise that the first kind could suddenly
lose that belief in their immortality
that seems natural in those under about 30 through constant trauma.
Perhaps enough to make them
unable to carry on in the same way. (As did Art's "Captain Johnson" I
think). That he 'lost his bottle'
as the poms put it, was just one man reaching his breaking point.


Agree.

We did have one that fell into neither of these two categories: I served with
a chump who decided (after 4 years of quiet, relatively safe peacetime
training) that it wasn't "safe" for him to fly night landings aboard ship. He
became a pariah in my squadron and he had no reason whatever to justify all the
thousands of dollars he soaked up, just to quit when he actually had to face a
little danger. He didn't ever live it down and when I see him on occasion, I
call him a coward to his face, San Diego Sheriff uniform or not. I can't
believe he took another career where folks will be depending on him, after the
way he reacted the first time. If I had him with me in battle, I'd shove him
out ahead of me and use what was left as a barricade, because I sure as hell
wouldn't want him _beside_ me.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

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