THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...

snip

Interesting story. JFK's "conscientious objector" quote sprang to mind
not because I'm a dove, but because after flying 62 missions "the
pilot who wouldn't fly" is not a coward.

With the benefit of being 50 years and half a world displaced in time and
space,
it would seem to most of us in this here and now that this man had simply
reached
a point where he could not continue, and given the circumstances that caused
that,
I cannot help feeling some sympathy towards a man who had reached his
personal
limit. Our understanding of this sort of thing here and now is well beyond
that of the era.

That said, in the there and then where this took place, there was a totally
different expectation
of behaviour, and whether it is 'right' by the more liberal attitudes of the
present doesn't alter the
fact that in that there and then, his peers felt contempt that he would walk
away from the duty that
they continued to do, day after day, night after night. In the here and
now he would probably get
more sympathy and understanding, but even now, within his own fraternity,
there would still be that
thought amongst them that he was no longer one of them...

The author of the story (e.g: Kramer) is the real coward.

Sir, I take very strong exception to this remark. I do not know Mr. Kramer
personally, only through his
posts to this group. To take his story (which I note carefully did *not*
reveal the true identity of
the man in question) and turn that explanation of how his fraternity dealt
with what *they felt* was
cowardice into a direct personal attack, specifically naming *him* as a
coward in the face of strong evidence
to the contrary, is, in my not so humble opinion, contemptible and requires
that you apologise unreservedly.

He told the story but preserved the dignity of the mans family (who perhaps
weren't aware of the details)
by maintaining his anonymity to all but those who were there and knew of
whom he spoke. He told the story
only after the man in question had died and could not be distressed further
by reading it.

I consider your accusation of cowardice reprehensible and 'conduct
unbecoming'.

BTW, how much combat experience do *you* have?

As Ghandi said, "A coward is incapable
of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave."

Ghandi didn't know **** about combat, and frankly, he also didn't know ****
about human nature.
If he'd pulled on his politics 50 years earlier he would have been tied
across the mouth of a cannon.
He was simply fortunate to be in a time and place where a tired and somewhat
jaded Empire
decided it wasn't worth the trouble of trying to keep their regency.

Whatever love Art and his colleagues felt for this man (and I don't doubt
that he *was* a brother to
them during his 62) this actually makes what they doubtless considered his
betrayal of that brotherhood
even worse to *them*. Would you feel worse if you were abandoned to your
fate by some casual acquaintance or
by someone you have gone through fire and death with and considered to be
'family'.

I guess to understand this concept, you had to *be there* or at least been
somewhere similar.

I strongly recommend that you carefully reconsider your statement and make
appropriate adjustments.

The CO

Subject: OT THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "The CO"
Date: 2/7/04 5:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .

snip

Interesting story. JFK's "conscientious objector" quote sprang to mind
not because I'm a dove, but because after flying 62 missions "the
pilot who wouldn't fly" is not a coward.

With the benefit of being 50 years and half a world displaced in time and
space,
it would seem to most of us in this here and now that this man had simply
reached
a point where he could not continue, and given the circumstances that caused
that,
I cannot help feeling some sympathy towards a man who had reached his
personal
limit. Our understanding of this sort of thing here and now is well beyond
that of the era.

That said, in the there and then where this took place, there was a totally
different expectation
of behaviour, and whether it is 'right' by the more liberal attitudes of the
present doesn't alter the
fact that in that there and then, his peers felt contempt that he would walk
away from the duty that
they continued to do, day after day, night after night. In the here and
now he would probably get
more sympathy and understanding, but even now, within his own fraternity,
there would still be that
thought amongst them that he was no longer one of them...

The author of the story (e.g: Kramer) is the real coward.

Sir, I take very strong exception to this remark. I do not know Mr. Kramer
personally, only through his
posts to this group. To take his story (which I note carefully did *not*
reveal the true identity of
the man in question) and turn that explanation of how his fraternity dealt
with what *they felt* was
cowardice into a direct personal attack, specifically naming *him* as a
coward in the face of strong evidence
to the contrary, is, in my not so humble opinion, contemptible and requires
that you apologise unreservedly.

He told the story but preserved the dignity of the mans family (who perhaps
weren't aware of the details)
by maintaining his anonymity to all but those who were there and knew of
whom he spoke. He told the story
only after the man in question had died and could not be distressed further
by reading it.

I consider your accusation of cowardice reprehensible and 'conduct
unbecoming'.

BTW, how much combat experience do *you* have?

As Ghandi said, "A coward is incapable
of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave."

Ghandi didn't know **** about combat, and frankly, he also didn't know ****
about human nature.
If he'd pulled on his politics 50 years earlier he would have been tied
across the mouth of a cannon.
He was simply fortunate to be in a time and place where a tired and somewhat
jaded Empire
decided it wasn't worth the trouble of trying to keep their regency.

Whatever love Art and his colleagues felt for this man (and I don't doubt
that he *was* a brother to
them during his 62) this actually makes what they doubtless considered his
betrayal of that brotherhood
even worse to *them*. Would you feel worse if you were abandoned to your
fate by some casual acquaintance or
by someone you have gone through fire and death with and considered to be
'family'.

I guess to understand this concept, you had to *be there* or at least been
somewhere similar.

I strongly recommend that you carefully reconsider your statement and make
appropriate adjustments.

The CO



I have found over the years that I can never predict who will be reading what I
post. Recently the daughter of a man I flew with in the 494th squadron found my
website and questionrd me at length about her dad. I knew her dad quite well.
He passed away recently. But had I witrten anything negative about him and
revealed his identity it would only break his daughter heart So I never, never,
never reveal names when it might cause anyone hurt. On my website "I am going
to die today" is a case in point Imagine had I revealed his identity and his
children read it now. It would be a tragedy. And creating tragedy is not why I
post my experiences. Thank you for your kind words and support. I appreciate
it.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: "The CO"

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .

snip

Interesting story. JFK's "conscientious objector" quote sprang to mind
not because I'm a dove, but because after flying 62 missions "the
pilot who wouldn't fly" is not a coward.

With the benefit of being 50 years and half a world displaced in time and
space,
it would seem to most of us in this here and now that this man had simply
reached
a point where he could not continue, and given the circumstances that caused
that,
I cannot help feeling some sympathy towards a man who had reached his
personal
limit. Our understanding of this sort of thing here and now is well beyond
that of the era.

That said, in the there and then where this took place, there was a totally
different expectation
of behaviour, and whether it is 'right' by the more liberal attitudes of the
present doesn't alter the
fact that in that there and then, his peers felt contempt that he would walk
away from the duty that
they continued to do, day after day, night after night. In the here and
now he would probably get
more sympathy and understanding, but even now, within his own fraternity,
there would still be that
thought amongst them that he was no longer one of them...

The author of the story (e.g: Kramer) is the real coward.

Sir, I take very strong exception to this remark. I do not know Mr. Kramer
personally, only through his
posts to this group. To take his story (which I note carefully did *not*
reveal the true identity of
the man in question) and turn that explanation of how his fraternity dealt
with what *they felt* was
cowardice into a direct personal attack, specifically naming *him* as a
coward in the face of strong evidence
to the contrary, is, in my not so humble opinion, contemptible and requires
that you apologise unreservedly.

He told the story but preserved the dignity of the mans family (who perhaps
weren't aware of the details)
by maintaining his anonymity to all but those who were there and knew of
whom he spoke. He told the story
only after the man in question had died and could not be distressed further
by reading it.

I consider your accusation of cowardice reprehensible and 'conduct
unbecoming'.

BTW, how much combat experience do *you* have?

As Ghandi said, "A coward is incapable
of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave."

Ghandi didn't know **** about combat, and frankly, he also didn't know ****
about human nature.
If he'd pulled on his politics 50 years earlier he would have been tied
across the mouth of a cannon.
He was simply fortunate to be in a time and place where a tired and somewhat
jaded Empire
decided it wasn't worth the trouble of trying to keep their regency.

Whatever love Art and his colleagues felt for this man (and I don't doubt
that he *was* a brother to
them during his 62) this actually makes what they doubtless considered his
betrayal of that brotherhood
even worse to *them*. Would you feel worse if you were abandoned to your
fate by some casual acquaintance or
by someone you have gone through fire and death with and considered to be
'family'.

I guess to understand this concept, you had to *be there* or at least been
somewhere similar.

I strongly recommend that you carefully reconsider your statement and make
appropriate adjustments.

The CO


In a recent thread marron accused the USAF of being responsible for 9-11. Take
what ever he says with how many grains of salt you desire. He has no military
experience.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Snip

I never, never, never reveal names when it might cause anyone hurt. On
my website "I am going
to die today" is a case in point Imagine had I revealed his identity and
his
children read it now. It would be a tragedy.

Quite right.

And creating tragedy is not why I
post my experiences.

Noted.

Thank you for your kind words and support. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. Your experiences are part of history and should be
preserved.
Personal attacks for posting them for others to see are inappropriate under
the circumstances.

The CO

"B2431" wrote in message
...

In a recent thread marron accused the USAF of being responsible for 9-11.

Boggle! Some variant of the fairy tale about how it should only take a few
minutes to get fighters
hot loaded, crewed and airborne with ROE for hijacked airliners full of
people all sorted and ready to kick butt no doubt.

Take what ever he says with how many grains of salt you desire.

Given that tidbit I doubt there is sufficient salt on the planet.

He has no military experience.

I Figured.

The CO

Mike Marron wrote:


Good explanation, however, even if I *never* fired a shot in anger I'd
still take an Eagle over a BUFF anyday. Why you ask? Well, if I have
to explain, you wouldn't understand...


Christ marron, you remind me more and more every day of a little
boy jumping up and down piping "Hey guys!!...kin I play
too?...kin I?... kin I?..." snort

--

-Gord.

"The CO" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

The author of the story (e.g: Kramer) is the real coward.

Sir, I take very strong exception to this remark.

Hey if you're that nieve as to buy into every one of Kramer's
self-aggrandizing, mittyesque war stories, that's YOUR problem
pal, not mine....

"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
I log on. Keep 'em flying."

-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"

B2431 ) wrote:

In a recent thread marron accused the USAF of being responsible for 9-11.

Huh? Either post the exact comment where I specifically accused the
USAF of being "responsible for 9/11" or go back to your scintillating
"pitot tube" arguments with Tarver.

Take what ever he says with how many grains of salt you desire. He has
no military experience.

I only wish that I had your military experience! I wish...I wish!!

"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

Christ marron, you remind me more and more every day of a little
boy jumping up and down piping "Hey guys!!...kin I play
too?...kin I?... kin I?..." snort

Yet another poster with nothing to say exercising his right to say
it. Christ beaman you remind me more and more every day of
the annoying little gadfly that you are. Hope ya don't choke on
whatever it was that you just snorted.

From: Mike Marron

snip

"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
I log on. Keep 'em flying."

-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"

Prove it or retract it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired