FLARM.....for good, or evil??

On Oct 28, 7:32*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:53:27 -0700 (PDT), Brian
wrote:

I hadn't really considered how the projected flight path system works
before. But after thinking about it for a bit it has a lot of
potentional. How much the Flarm actually uses I do not know.

Flarm uses ONLY projected flight paths to calculate a collision
probability.

Even without that I
can see that gliders could get very close but have potential flight
paths that would make colliding impossible and as a result would not
create a collision alarm.

This is exactly how Flarm works.
Flarm doesn't care about distances - as long as Flarm doesn't detect a
potential collision cource, you can fly very close to each other
without getting a warning - even if you are circling.

Andreas

I think that's the secret for how you make it useful in thermals - if
the system knows you are circling it can do a better job predicting
your curved flight path and potential threats along that path. I
presume that if you assume the full maneuvering envelope of each
glider you'd generate a lot of warnings, so it would make sense to
assume something more limited that strikes a balance between false
positive warnings and missing potential maneuvers that could create a
threat with little advanced notice. Think of a glider pulling up into
a thermal as a good example. I assume that Flarm does all this based
on the following explanation where an expanding projected flight path
envelope is depicted:

http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm-WhatDoesItDo

As to ADS-B - without some algorithm for projecting flight paths the
only warning you can realistically generate is a proximity warning.
Even warning only for declining separation distance is a crude form of
relative path prediction, just not a very useful one - particularly
for glider operations with multiple targets and circling flight.

9B

On Oct 28, 8:47 am, Andy wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:32 am, Andreas Maurer wrote:



On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:53:27 -0700 (PDT), Brian
wrote:

I hadn't really considered how the projected flight path system works
before. But after thinking about it for a bit it has a lot of
potentional. How much the Flarm actually uses I do not know.

Flarm uses ONLY projected flight paths to calculate a collision
probability.

Even without that I
can see that gliders could get very close but have potential flight
paths that would make colliding impossible and as a result would not
create a collision alarm.

This is exactly how Flarm works.
Flarm doesn't care about distances - as long as Flarm doesn't detect a
potential collision cource, you can fly very close to each other
without getting a warning - even if you are circling.

Andreas

I think that's the secret for how you make it useful in thermals - if
the system knows you are circling it can do a better job predicting
your curved flight path and potential threats along that path. I
presume that if you assume the full maneuvering envelope of each
glider you'd generate a lot of warnings, so it would make sense to
assume something more limited that strikes a balance between false
positive warnings and missing potential maneuvers that could create a
threat with little advanced notice. Think of a glider pulling up into
a thermal as a good example. I assume that Flarm does all this based
on the following explanation where an expanding projected flight path
envelope is depicted:

http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm-WhatDoesItDo

As to ADS-B - without some algorithm for projecting flight paths the
only warning you can realistically generate is a proximity warning.
Even warning only for declining separation distance is a crude form of
relative path prediction, just not a very useful one - particularly
for glider operations with multiple targets and circling flight.

9B

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS.
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message ...
On Oct 28, 8:47 am, Andy wrote:

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS.
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

The following is not directed at any individual, it is simply an observation.

Even the old Garmin 12XL provides a lot more information in it's NMEA sentences the most of us realize. It is data output sentences are fully compliant with NMEA 0183 ver 2.0. The following link give an example of the data provided by "GPS engines" to software developer thus minimizing the amount of calculation required in display devices.
http://www8.garmin.com/support/pdf/NMEA_0183.pdf

As I watch these PowerFLARM discussion it is apparent that many assume that things provided by the GPS must be created by the FLARM software.

Let us accept the fact that the PowerFLARM is just an upgrade of previous units that have been proven effective in increasing glider flight safety.

Respectfully,
Wayne

On Oct 28, 1:40*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
"Darryl Ramm" wrote in ...
On Oct 28, 8:47 am, Andy wrote:

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS.
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

The following is not directed at any individual, it is simply an observation.

Even the old Garmin 12XL provides a lot more information in it's NMEA sentences the most of us realize. *It is data output sentences are fully compliant with NMEA 0183 ver 2.0. *The following link give an example of the data provided by "GPS engines" to software developer thus minimizing the amount of calculation required in display devices.http://www8.garmin.com/support/pdf/NMEA_0183.pdf

As I watch these PowerFLARM discussion it is apparent that many assume that things provided by the GPS must be created by the FLARM software.

Let us accept the fact that the PowerFLARM is just an upgrade of previous units that have been proven effective in increasing glider flight safety.

Respectfully,
Wayne

There have been several comment regarding the need for an STC to
install an ADS-B system in a certified aircraft.

This is not unlike the original situation with the installation of IFR
certified GPS systems, in the early 1990s. I was involved in several
installations and most of the concerns were about the placement of
antenna and the effect of spurious signals on navigation.

Today if you get an IFR GPS installed in an aircraft the manufacturer
has a detailed description of antenna placement, cable routing and
possible interaction. This data was collected during the earlier STC
period and as experience with more installations was gained, the FAA
changed the requirements from an STC to a 337, if installed in
compliance with the manufacturer's instructions.

I expect that the STC requirements for the ADS-B will follow the same
path over time.

Mike

On Oct 28, 1:54*pm, SoaringXCellence wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:40*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:



"Darryl Ramm" wrote in ...
On Oct 28, 8:47 am, Andy wrote:

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS.
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

The following is not directed at any individual, it is simply an observation.

Even the old Garmin 12XL provides a lot more information in it's NMEA sentences the most of us realize. *It is data output sentences are fully compliant with NMEA 0183 ver 2.0. *The following link give an example of the data provided by "GPS engines" to software developer thus minimizing the amount of calculation required in display devices.http://www8.garmin.com/support/pdf/NMEA_0183.pdf

As I watch these PowerFLARM discussion it is apparent that many assume that things provided by the GPS must be created by the FLARM software.

Let us accept the fact that the PowerFLARM is just an upgrade of previous units that have been proven effective in increasing glider flight safety..

Respectfully,
Wayne

There have been several comment regarding the need for an STC to
install an ADS-B system in a certified aircraft.

This is not unlike the original situation with the installation of IFR
certified GPS systems, in the early 1990s. *I was involved in several
installations and most of the concerns were about the placement of
antenna and the effect of spurious signals on navigation.

Today if you get an IFR GPS installed in an aircraft the manufacturer
has a detailed description of antenna placement, cable routing and
possible interaction. *This data was collected during the earlier STC
period and as experience with more installations was gained, the FAA
changed the requirements from an STC to a 337, if installed in
compliance with the manufacturer's instructions.

I expect that the STC requirements for the ADS-B will follow the same
path over time.

Mike

Absolutely right (and antenna issues are one of the concerns with this
STC requirement as well). Its a matter of when the STC process
migrates to a 337/Field approval. Given the complexity of ADS-B I
wonder what the time frame will really be. And the FCC has stated that
clearly but the STC requirement still seems to have come as a bit of a
surprise to some developers--and maybe regulators where there are
questions if the cost of this was included in disclosures. I see no
way for now but for this to freeze a lot of adoption--but I suspect
from the FAA viewpoint it is needed. I do worry that smaller
manufacturers won't be able to develop many STCs and I am doubtful
you'll see folks willing to develop STCs for gliders. My purpose of
promoting the STC issue is just nobody seemed to be aware of it in
the glider community yet there are (a few) owners starting to look at
install of ADS-B data-out. Some of those owners have experimental
gliders and are in a better position. Those with certified gliders
need to have a discussion with vendors about STCs. In a practical
sense as well most vendors are busy finishing off their "-B" rev data-
out products (e.g. Garmin, Trig and others) and getting TSO approval
on those. And I see that as a gate to STC approval, but clearly they
could be overlapping TSO approval and STC development. And larger
companies beside having lots of STC approval experience may also be
able to leverage past ADS-B STC developed for trails, such as the
GOMEX ADS-B trials.


Darryl

On 10/28/2010 5:15 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:54 pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:40 pm, "Wayne wrote:



"Darryl wrote in ...
On Oct 28, 8:47 am, wrote:

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS.
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

The following is not directed at any individual, it is simply an observation.

Even the old Garmin 12XL provides a lot more information in it's NMEA sentences the most of us realize. It is data output sentences are fully compliant with NMEA 0183 ver 2.0. The following link give an example of the data provided by "GPS engines" to software developer thus minimizing the amount of calculation required in display devices.http://www8.garmin.com/support/pdf/NMEA_0183.pdf

As I watch these PowerFLARM discussion it is apparent that many assume that things provided by the GPS must be created by the FLARM software.

Let us accept the fact that the PowerFLARM is just an upgrade of previous units that have been proven effective in increasing glider flight safety.

Respectfully,
Wayne

There have been several comment regarding the need for an STC to
install an ADS-B system in a certified aircraft.

This is not unlike the original situation with the installation of IFR
certified GPS systems, in the early 1990s. I was involved in several
installations and most of the concerns were about the placement of
antenna and the effect of spurious signals on navigation.

Today if you get an IFR GPS installed in an aircraft the manufacturer
has a detailed description of antenna placement, cable routing and
possible interaction. This data was collected during the earlier STC
period and as experience with more installations was gained, the FAA
changed the requirements from an STC to a 337, if installed in
compliance with the manufacturer's instructions.

I expect that the STC requirements for the ADS-B will follow the same
path over time.

Mike

Absolutely right (and antenna issues are one of the concerns with this
STC requirement as well). Its a matter of when the STC process
migrates to a 337/Field approval. Given the complexity of ADS-B I
wonder what the time frame will really be. And the FCC has stated that
clearly but the STC requirement still seems to have come as a bit of a
surprise to some developers--and maybe regulators where there are
questions if the cost of this was included in disclosures. I see no
way for now but for this to freeze a lot of adoption--but I suspect
from the FAA viewpoint it is needed. I do worry that smaller
manufacturers won't be able to develop many STCs and I am doubtful
you'll see folks willing to develop STCs for gliders. My purpose of
promoting the STC issue is just nobody seemed to be aware of it in
the glider community yet there are (a few) owners starting to look at
install of ADS-B data-out. Some of those owners have experimental
gliders and are in a better position. Those with certified gliders
need to have a discussion with vendors about STCs. In a practical
sense as well most vendors are busy finishing off their "-B" rev data-
out products (e.g. Garmin, Trig and others) and getting TSO approval
on those. And I see that as a gate to STC approval, but clearly they
could be overlapping TSO approval and STC development. And larger
companies beside having lots of STC approval experience may also be
able to leverage past ADS-B STC developed for trails, such as the
GOMEX ADS-B trials.


Darryl

I find it difficult to understand the "complexity" involved in ADS-B.
This is basically the same technology as FLARM (UAT) or Mode S
transponders (1090ES). The main difference between FLARM and UAT is the
frequency and power level of the transmitter. (Yes I know that UAT
doesn't include any of the collision detection logic of FLARM).

At some point, the FAA will figure this out or the whole ADS-B exercise
will come to a dead end.

--
Mike Schumann

On Oct 28, 3:57*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 10/28/2010 5:15 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:







On Oct 28, 1:54 pm, *wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:40 pm, "Wayne *wrote:

"Darryl *wrote in ...
On Oct 28, 8:47 am, *wrote:

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS..
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

The following is not directed at any individual, it is simply an observation.

Even the old Garmin 12XL provides a lot more information in it's NMEA sentences the most of us realize. *It is data output sentences are fully compliant with NMEA 0183 ver 2.0. *The following link give an example of the data provided by "GPS engines" to software developer thus minimizing the amount of calculation required in display devices.http://www8.garmin.com/support/pdf/NMEA_0183.pdf

As I watch these PowerFLARM discussion it is apparent that many assume that things provided by the GPS must be created by the FLARM software.

Let us accept the fact that the PowerFLARM is just an upgrade of previous units that have been proven effective in increasing glider flight safety.

Respectfully,
Wayne

There have been several comment regarding the need for an STC to
install an ADS-B system in a certified aircraft.

This is not unlike the original situation with the installation of IFR
certified GPS systems, in the early 1990s. *I was involved in several
installations and most of the concerns were about the placement of
antenna and the effect of spurious signals on navigation.

Today if you get an IFR GPS installed in an aircraft the manufacturer
has a detailed description of antenna placement, cable routing and
possible interaction. *This data was collected during the earlier STC
period and as experience with more installations was gained, the FAA
changed the requirements from an STC to a 337, if installed in
compliance with the manufacturer's instructions.

I expect that the STC requirements for the ADS-B will follow the same
path over time.

Mike

Absolutely right (and antenna issues are one of the concerns with this
STC requirement as well). Its a matter of when the STC process
migrates to a 337/Field approval. Given the complexity of ADS-B I
wonder what the time frame will really be. And the FCC has stated that
clearly but the STC requirement still seems to have come as a bit of a
surprise to some developers--and maybe regulators where there are
questions if the cost of this was included in disclosures. I see no
way for now but for this to freeze a lot of adoption--but I suspect
from the FAA viewpoint it is needed. I do worry that smaller
manufacturers won't be able to develop many STCs and I am doubtful
you'll see folks willing to develop STCs for gliders. My purpose of
promoting the STC issue is just nobody seemed to be *aware of it in
the glider community yet there are (a few) owners starting to look at
install of ADS-B data-out. Some of those owners have experimental
gliders and are in a better position. Those with certified gliders
need to have a discussion with vendors about STCs. In a practical
sense as well most vendors are busy finishing off their "-B" rev data-
out products (e.g. Garmin, Trig and others) and getting TSO approval
on those. And I see that as a gate to STC approval, but clearly they
could be overlapping TSO approval and STC development. And larger
companies beside having lots of STC approval experience may also be
able to leverage past ADS-B STC developed for trails, such as the
GOMEX ADS-B trials.

Darryl

I find it difficult to understand the "complexity" involved in ADS-B.
This is basically the same technology as FLARM (UAT) or Mode S
transponders (1090ES). *The main difference between FLARM and UAT is the
frequency and power level of the transmitter. *(Yes I know that UAT
doesn't include any of the collision detection logic of FLARM).

At some point, the FAA will figure this out or the whole ADS-B exercise
will come to a dead end.

--
Mike Schumann

ADS-B and its implementation and role in NextGen and all the different
players looking at this beast from all different angles and trying to
solve all sorts of different problems makes this is one of the most
complex undertakings ever in aviation.... and that includes everything
from the details of the data transmitted on up (e.g. the GPS chip in a
Flarm likely costs a few tens of dollars at most, a GPS box or module
for an ADS-B data-out TSO'ed product currently costs thousands of
dollars). All that extra stuff and bureaucracy that make it cost that
much really has no practical benefit for glider-glider collision
avoidance but has benefits to others.

Lets see, ADS-B data-out, ADS-B data-in, 1090ES, UAT, ADS-R, TIS-B,
FIS-B, surface surveillance, terminal surveillance, en-route
surveillance, essential services, critical services, TSO-C166b/
DO-260B, TSO-C154c/DO-282B, TSO-C145a/TSO-C146a WAAS GPS, SIL, NIC,
STCs, ... if this does not make your head ache you may not be thinking
about it hard enough. Most people just don't need to worry since this
is all years away from being interesting for them. Years away when FAA
ground services, ADS-B products, product cost, fleet adoption and
market awareness all start to line up.

And this applies to the ADS-B receiver part PowerFLARM as well -
especially its dependence on having ADS-B out for ADS-R and TIS-B to
work. There is a lot more the FAA and its providers have to do and
there is a lot more we all have to do to understand all this
technology and how best to use it moving forward - given that by 2020
a significant part of the entire USA aircraft fleet will be ADS-B data-
out equipped. But again I'm not trying to hawk ADS-B as being at all
ready for our market now, but I've very happy to see products like
PowerFLARM providing a path to include that in future.

Darryl

On Oct 28, 4:54*pm, SoaringXCellence wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:40*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:



"Darryl Ramm" wrote in ...
On Oct 28, 8:47 am, Andy wrote:

Just to give a flavor ADS-B data-out systems as mandated for 2020 in
the USA for power aircraft (basically where a transponder is required
today) will put out the following data

Aircraft ICAO ID (can be made anonymous for a UAT on VFR flight)
Aircraft callsign/flight number (not required for VFR flight)
Time of applicability
GPS Lattitude
GPS Longitude
GPS altitude
Airborne/on-surface status
Northbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Eastbound ground velocity component while airborne (from GPS)
Heading while on the surface
Ground speed while on the surface
Pressure altitude
Vertical rate (may be pressure or GPS based)
GPS uncertainty/integrity (which needs information form a fancy TSO-
C145 class WAAS GPS)
Ident (equivalent to transponder ident/SPI)
Distress/Emergency status
ADS-B data-in/display capability
TCAS equipage/status

This is a simplified list and there is various other status/validity
data as well. There is also the concept in ADS-B messages of an
estimated position, and even estimated velocity. But AFAIK this is not
intended for fancy manoeuvrings predictions - it is more intended to
allow different parts of the ADS-B infrastructure to project position
or velocity updated to a single time of applicability. There is space
for future expansion and as an example there is long-term work
underway to look at an ADS-B based replacement for TCAS that could
well utilize extra data transmission than that above, but think well
post 2020 for this to actually happen. My brain hurts enough thinking
about ADS-B as is.

---

BTW my suspicion is given that the FAA currently requires a STC for
any installation for ADS-B data out that it is currently not possible
to install any ADS-B data-out system in the USA in any certified
aircraft (including gliders) that only meets a subset of the 2020
mandate requirements (ie. does not include all the stuff above). Which
I expect the FAA would also require fully TSO-C154c/DO-282B (UAT) TSO-
C166b/DO-260B (1090ES) and with the corresponding TSO-C145 level GPS.
Experimental aircraft are another question since an STC cannot apply
to them. This STC restriction hopefully is short-term as its is going
to have a chilling effect on ADS-B data-out adoption in general
aviation and gliders. Besides some more complex issues you can start
to see even simple installation concerns that are probably causing
this current STC requirement, such as squat switch/or other on-ground
detection, needs to have a single squawk code and ident button across
any installed transponder(s) and ADS-B data-out devices, ability to
transmit a distress/emergency code, ability to turn off the ADS-B
transmissions if requested, etc.

Darryl

The following is not directed at any individual, it is simply an observation.

Even the old Garmin 12XL provides a lot more information in it's NMEA sentences the most of us realize. *It is data output sentences are fully compliant with NMEA 0183 ver 2.0. *The following link give an example of the data provided by "GPS engines" to software developer thus minimizing the amount of calculation required in display devices.http://www8.garmin.com/support/pdf/NMEA_0183.pdf

As I watch these PowerFLARM discussion it is apparent that many assume that things provided by the GPS must be created by the FLARM software.

Let us accept the fact that the PowerFLARM is just an upgrade of previous units that have been proven effective in increasing glider flight safety..

Respectfully,
Wayne

There have been several comment regarding the need for an STC to
install an ADS-B system in a certified aircraft.

This is not unlike the original situation with the installation of IFR
certified GPS systems, in the early 1990s. *I was involved in several
installations and most of the concerns were about the placement of
antenna and the effect of spurious signals on navigation.

Today if you get an IFR GPS installed in an aircraft the manufacturer
has a detailed description of antenna placement, cable routing and
possible interaction. *This data was collected during the earlier STC
period and as experience with more installations was gained, the FAA
changed the requirements from an STC to a 337, if installed in
compliance with the manufacturer's instructions.

I expect that the STC requirements for the ADS-B will follow the same
path over time.

Mike

Agreed completely. However, note that 1090 MHz
ADS-B (1090ES) uses the existing transponder antenna.
Much simpler than the early GPS situation.
However, UAT...

Hope that helps clarify the (not simple) situation,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"