Commercial Rating for Towing Gliders not needed? in US

On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:
On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long dayhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/4...cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacierhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

I'm curious about non-profit clubs that provide towing to commercial
glider operators. The CFIG/Commercial pilot is a club member, using
club towplane and resources, and charging for lessons and commercial
rides. I just don't want to see our club be on the hook if something
happens while he is on tow.

Brad

On Oct 31, 10:21*pm, Brad wrote:
On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:



On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation.. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long dayhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/4...cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacierhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

I'm curious about non-profit clubs that provide towing to commercial
glider operators. The CFIG/Commercial pilot is a club member, using
club towplane and resources, and charging for lessons and commercial
rides. I just don't want to see our club be on the hook if something
happens while he is on tow.

Brad

Our club currently has tow for hire insurance. If we sell a ride to
the public (allowed under the SSA group plan), the tow pilot and ride
pilot are current commercial or better and the tow plane and ride
glider is within current 100-hour checks. Neither I nor Costello will
attempt to interpret the FARs for you. Some other operations may do
things differently. As group plan policies are renewed, there are
some changes in who may be towed without tow for hire coverage, but
current SSA members of other chapters may be eligible.

In at least one SSA region, there are no commercial operations. Thus
the only options for glider rides are with clubs/chapters. I know of
one ride operator in another region that makes as much from glider
rides as his Stearman rides, therefore continues the glider ride
service. Doesn't hurt that the glider can fly over the nearby
national park and the Stearman can't. Otherwise, he's not really into
gliders. In other cases, commercial operators primary revenue streams
are rides and training. In a few cases, private owners are treated as
secondary and tows may be delayed if rides and lessons are in the
launch queue. Word gets around.

So, are rides important? Definitely in some cases they are bread and
butter services for commercial operators. Why would clubs/chapters
want to sell rides to the public? Member growth? Revenue stream?
Community relations? I would suggest there is a better way than rides
to grow your club. Introductory memberships and lessons create an
opportunity for the prospective member to see if they are a good fit
for soaring and your club. Giving rides for revenue means your club/
chapter has excess capacity (needs to grow) or members are being under
served. Resources, gliders and staff, are being directed away from
the members, the club/chapter bread and butter revenue stream. Unless
ride pilots are really developing the skills to become instructors,
giving rides as a revenue stream requires the extended costs of 100-
hour checks and perhaps insurance. If the club/chapter has an IRS tax
exempt determination, it may not compete with a commercial operator
for public revenue at the same location. If a 501c(7), then there are
also gross receipts limitations. These do not apply to members.

As long as the club doesn't charge for community relations rides,
there's no issue. Standard warnings apply.

Frank Whiteley

On Oct 31, 10:21*pm, Brad wrote:
On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:



On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation.. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long dayhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/4...cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacierhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

I'm curious about non-profit clubs that provide towing to commercial
glider operators. The CFIG/Commercial pilot is a club member, using
club towplane and resources, and charging for lessons and commercial
rides. I just don't want to see our club be on the hook if something
happens while he is on tow.

Brad

Now about your more specific question.

My club's instructors are treated as independent contractors. They
charge or not and negotiate the fees with their students. A
commercial tow pilot is not required for member tows. For public
rides, a commercial tow pilot is used. The majority of our tow pilots
hold commercial ratings. That's our approach. Other clubs take other
approaches.

The question is the standards the courts will apply to involved
parties if there's an accident. When people give money for a service,
there is an expectation that the higher commercial standard is in
effect and that's what the courts will find. Does that extend to the
tow plane? I've heard both arguments. What it boils down to is the
exposure to the members of the club. It's the board's responsibility
to explain that to the members and the decision should probably not be
made solely by the board. The board should have a chat with Costello,
if under the SSA group plan.

Frank Whiteley

USA: Don't forget the appropriate medical certificate.
Note that a towpilot with a FAA Commercial Certificate (w/ASEL) can
let their second class FAA medical lapse to a third class, and then
can only exercise Private privileges until that third class medical
expires.

This was an issue discussed at a recent US contest where tows were
conducted for hire. As I heard it, the towpilot had a Commercial
Certificate, but a third class medical.

Look at the situation not so much as an FAA requirement, but as an
insurance requirement that is based on the possibility of pilots and
clubs being judged in a US Court by a jury of non-aviation people.
(Paranoia strikes deep.)

Insert favorite lawyer joke he

On Nov 1, 10:32*am, Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
USA: *Don't forget the appropriate medical certificate.
Note that a towpilot with a FAA Commercial Certificate (w/ASEL) can
let their second class FAA medical lapse to a third class, and then
can only exercise Private privileges until that third class medical
expires.

This was an issue discussed at a recent US contest where tows were
conducted for hire. *As I heard it, the towpilot had a Commercial
Certificate, but a third class medical.

Look at the situation not so much as an FAA requirement, but as an
insurance requirement that is based on the possibility of pilots and
clubs being judged in a US Court by a jury of non-aviation people.
(Paranoia strikes deep.)

Insert favorite lawyer joke he

We have at least one pilot that does exactly that, takes the third
class for a year.

Frank