Future Club Training Gliders

At 03:49 07 November 2010, sisu1a wrote:

They were walking past all these gorgeous glass
ships that were fueling his fancy -and kept going past them, to what
by his description of what he remembered could only have been a 2-33.
His heart sank, he lost his inspiration as well as his confidence;
enough so that he didn't go through with the flight and lost the spark
of interest.

Gotta feel sorry for somebody with so little imagination. I transitioned
from power to gliders in 1975, and trained almost exclusively in 2-33s
(and the occasional Blanik). Perhaps it was different, already being a
pilot, but the first revelation of what even a ratty old 2-33 could do in
the air was amazing. So it didn't look all that great, it had those big,
big wings. And when you're inside the heap, it doesn't look so bad.
Like the man said,

My face, I don't mind it,
For I am behind it.
It's the people in front whom I jar.

Jim Beckman

On Nov 7, 5:52*am, Jim Beckman wrote:

Gotta feel sorry for somebody with so little imagination. *I transitioned
from power to gliders in 1975, and trained almost exclusively in 2-33s
(and the occasional Blanik). *Perhaps it was different, already being a
pilot, but the first revelation of what even a ratty old 2-33 could do in
the air was amazing. *So it didn't look all that great, it had those big,
big wings. *And when you're inside the heap, it doesn't look so bad.


As a kid 5 decades ago, I asked my Dad for a new Schwinn 10 speed
bicycle for Christmas.
I got a balloon tire hand-me-down instead. I fixed it up, rode far
and wide on it and I was very happy.
In high school I longed for a 1967 Porsche, but got a 1956 Volkswagen.
Sure had fun in that VW back seat at the drive-in movies.
Later I saw a new Datsun 240Z, but settled for a Mercury Capri.
Sure had a lot of fun in it cruising the Florida Keys.
In 1968 I soloed a 2-33 at the Schweizer school in Elmira, NY.
Ran the ridge at Harris Hill. Sure had fun and I'll never forget that
day.

My old bike, the '56 Volkswagen, the 2-33; just means to an end to be
one with the machine, one with the world.

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
I don't care to argue about it. Nobody is wrong. If you can afford to
buy a nice lookin' glider for your club, then buy it for them.

Then again, if you younger folks want to fly something "pretty" down
in southwest Texas . . . you know where I am.

Burt
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center
ASK-13, DG-1000T, Blanik L-23 (for sale, soon to be replaced by a new
ASK-21.)

P.S. By the way, I'd love to find a really nice Schweizer 2-22 -- now
THAT is a cool lookin' glider! A Grunau Baby would be amazing to own!
Talk about "SOUL" -- those old, ugly gliders (and for that matter the
older gals) have it!

Sing Along (funky style): "It's not what you look like when you're
doin' what you're doin'. It's what you're doin', when you're doin',
what you look like you're doin'."
"Express Yourself" - Charles Wright and the Watts 103rd Street Rhythm
Band (1970, and sounds fine on something called a "vinyl record".)

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.

This isn't about us - we became glider pilots in spite of difficulties
and discouragements. For us, It really didn't matter much what
trainer was used because we really, really wanted to fly. We need to
look less at why we became glider pilots and more at why vast numbers
DIDN'T become glider pilots. I'd guess that for every one of us there
are many more who just walked away. Those missing pilots are why the
number of glider pilots are decreasing.

To use skiing as an example again, that sport existed for decades with
hard-core enthusiasts using wooden ski's and rope tows but didn't make
the big time until equipment and facilities were drastically
improved. Clever marketers who concentrated on improving the
"customer experience" made it a multi-billion dollar sport. Soaring
has the same potential.

This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. We can
do better.

On Nov 7, 10:13*am, bildan wrote:
Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. *However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. *We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

On Nov 7, 10:42*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:13*am, bildan wrote:

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. *However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. *We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

Agreed, John.

Aero tow corresponds to skiing's rope tow - it's slow and requires
skill. Self launch corresponds to helicopter skiing - fast, exclusive
and expensive. For those of us with less money, more time and room,
there's winch launch which might be said as corresponding to a chair
lift.

To this I would add instructor supervised simulator training. This is
a proven adjunct to pilot training which can be done anywhere, anytime
with no weather or equipment restrictions. With the loss of 50% of
our training fleet due to the L-13 grounding, I'd think this would be
an attractive option for a lot of people. With a data projector
(beamer) it lends itself to classroom sessions with a number of
student pilots in attendance. The use of simulators can
significantly reduce the demands on scarce training gliders.

Bill Daniels

On 11/7/2010 2:15 PM, bildan wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:42 am, John
wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:13 am, wrote:

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

Agreed, John.

Aero tow corresponds to skiing's rope tow - it's slow and requires
skill. Self launch corresponds to helicopter skiing - fast, exclusive
and expensive. For those of us with less money, more time and room,
there's winch launch which might be said as corresponding to a chair
lift.

To this I would add instructor supervised simulator training. This is
a proven adjunct to pilot training which can be done anywhere, anytime
with no weather or equipment restrictions. With the loss of 50% of
our training fleet due to the L-13 grounding, I'd think this would be
an attractive option for a lot of people. With a data projector
(beamer) it lends itself to classroom sessions with a number of
student pilots in attendance. The use of simulators can
significantly reduce the demands on scarce training gliders.

Bill Daniels

If you look at a Motorglider like the Phoenix, you can also keep it in a
regular T-Hanger at your local urban airport. Now you don't have to
drive 45 miles to get to a glider port. That's another huge plus for
both established glider pilots as well as new prospects.

--
Mike Schumann

On 11/7/2010 2:03 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On 11/7/2010 2:15 PM, bildan wrote:

If you look at a Motorglider like the Phoenix, you can also keep it in
a regular T-Hanger at your local urban airport. Now you don't have to
drive 45 miles to get to a glider port. That's another huge plus for
both established glider pilots as well as new prospects.

I'm skeptical that this kind of aircraft, as lovely as it is, would
appeal to glider pilots. It seems like too much airplane and not enough
glider, both in performance and the "feel" of it when you are sitting
inside it. And I wonder how well it would work for training, since it is
so different from the other common trainers, and so very different from
the single seat gliders we'd expect the student to move into. Has anyone
used a Phoenix or similar as Mike suggests?

Perhaps the Taurus would be better choice for *glider* pilots. It's wing
is 15 meters, but the panels are light enough, they could be removed and
stored beside the fuselage in stands in a hangar, taking less space than
the Phoenix. I think the two-wheel main gear would make this practical,
but don't know anyone that does this.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Nov 7, 2:03*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 11/7/2010 2:15 PM, bildan wrote:



On Nov 7, 10:42 am, John
wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:13 am, *wrote:

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. *However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. *We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

Agreed, John.

Aero tow corresponds to skiing's rope tow - it's slow and requires
skill. *Self launch corresponds to helicopter skiing - fast, exclusive
and expensive. *For those of us with less money, more time and room,
there's winch launch which might be said as corresponding to a chair
lift.

To this I would add instructor supervised simulator training. *This is
a proven adjunct to pilot training which can be done anywhere, anytime
with no weather or equipment restrictions. *With the loss of 50% of
our training fleet due to the L-13 grounding, I'd think this would be
an attractive option for a lot of people. *With a data projector
(beamer) it lends itself to classroom sessions with a number of
student pilots in attendance. * The use of simulators can
significantly reduce the demands on scarce training gliders.

Bill Daniels

If you look at a Motorglider like the Phoenix, you can also keep it in a
regular T-Hanger at your local urban airport. *Now you don't have to
drive 45 miles to get to a glider port. *That's another huge plus for
both established glider pilots as well as new prospects.

--
Mike Schumann

Are you talking abut the Phoenix as a potential private owner or for
instruction? (which was the context here?).

Its a tail-dragger tourer. I'm not sure about the insurance issues
there, while possible (but expensive?) I've seen issues with owners of
their own type-certificated power tail daggers getting insurance for
receiving instruction in their own aircraft even when coupled with
high time tail-dragger instructors.

When will it be type certificated in the USA? As an LSA you are able
to do exactly what instruction today...?

You can keep training gliders like a Duo Discus in its box and rig it
daily if needed. I know operation that do that. And I know lots of
folks, including me, that rig without problems at public airports. So
while I'm not disagreeing on the potential for storage in a hangar as
begin a convenience for an owner I'm just not sure it removes a
significant barrier to providing glider training in new places. The
ability to more easily taxi a touring motor-glider especial around
runway and taxiway lights etc. might be a more significant advantage
for operating out of GA airports. Hard to guess a general statement
there.

Darryl

On Nov 7, 9:42*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:13*am, bildan wrote:

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. *However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. *We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

I think that as an ab-initio trainer (up until you work on XC) the
ASK-21 is hard to beat, like all round really hard to beat. But as an
an owner of a beautiful ASH-26E self-launch glider I'd be careful
about thinking of an ASK-21Mi as a club/FBO instructional glider. And
I'm not sure exactly is meant by using a self-launch glider for
instruction... For primary instruction I'm very dubious and for XC/
advanced stuff you really want something with more legs than the
ASK-21 (and remember the ASK-21Mi is effectively fully ballasted with
water you cannot dump), and even then I think new XC pilots are better
off in a conventional glider (and landing out a few times...).

The motors in typical retracting mast motoglider are just not anywhere
near the same durability as you'll find in a typical C150 or Pawnee or
other towplane. Many of these gliders with engines with 100 hours on
them would be considered "high time". Tasking these specialized
gliders and using them for high-duty trainers would be the last thing
I would want to do for many reasons. A taste....

- Slight cross winds especially quartering tailwinds will give you
handling problem that you'd never expedience with a tow plane to
follow.

- You'll need an intercom for safe communications and reducing the
potential of hearing damage - another hassle to deal with.

- Mast retraction and engine cooldown proceedures are additional
workload for many motorgliders and will cramp some high cycle training
flights.

- I'd also have concerns about climb performance of a two-seater with
two "American weight" folks on board especially at high density
altitudes.

- For folks at the higher end of that "American normal" weight you are
going to run up against W&B limits.

- Incorrect cooldown, or forgetting to check the oil (or forgetting to
secure the oil cap after that check) or forgetting to adding the oil
premix (for the two stroke engines) to the fuel and you might be
answering the other question about what a new engine or rebuild costs
(want a guess... $10k-$30k depending on type and how much damage and
what ancillary systems also need replacing). Clubs/FBOS have to
maintain towplanes and they are more complex than conventional gliders
but they get exposed a lot less to students and others making
mistakes.

- Motorgliders also tend to be maintenance fussy, require some
detailed knowledge, good access to other experienced owners and the
factory and occasionally special tools, engine test/run stands etc.
There are very few service centers in the USA who can work on typical
motorgliders (that I'd trust) -- and often engine rebuilds are needed
to/best done at the engine factory.

---

None of this is specific to Schleicher - other self launchers,
especially retracting mast ones, will have may similar and likely
other operations issues -- including electrics, jets etc. A good old
towplane with relatively understandable ownership costs and utility
would be my first choice. I'd also not be rushing to do primary glider
training in a touring motorglider (unless that pilot was dead set on
buying and flying that type. Us of winches to lower costs are a
separate topic. Oh and add in commercial operators need a certified
two seat motorglider which for them will thin the field a bit. Current
insurance under the SSA plan for a private motorglider owner is pretty
easy to get but as a policy owner who will be affected by rising
prices, I really hope underwriters would look at what I expect are
increased risks involved in doing primary glider instruction
especially in a retracting mast glider.

The ASK-21Mi on the other hand should be an excellent trainer platform
(with dual seat engine controls) for self launch endorsements, self-
launch proficiency training etc. But that is a pretty small market.
Its a worry that many of us who needed self-launch endorsements end up
doing them in touring motorgliders which have significant different
operation, handling and saftey issues.

Now I'm sure there will be some folks out there that we'll hear from
here that are doing instruction in an ASK-21Mi or similar today, I
could see it might sense more for very small clubs with memberships
with high equity ownership and high amounts of supervision, especially
if members want to move up to other motorgliders but in general I
think a bad idea.

Darryl

On Nov 7, 1:30*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
A good old
towplane with relatively understandable ownership costs and utility
would be my first choice.

I wouldn't strongly disagree but there are significantly less than 200
- perhaps as few as 160 - tow planes in the US and little chance of
increasing that number in the short term. If the sport were to
suddenly expand, we may find ourselves waiting a long time for tows.
The last 1800' tow I bought from a commercial operator cost $55 which
is absolutely reducing flying.

Moving training to winches makes sense especially since the ASK-21 is
arguably the worlds best winch glider. (The 2-33 is arguably the
worst.)