Future Club Training Gliders

On 11/8/2010 10:09 AM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:30 am, Darryl wrote:
On Nov 7, 11:02 pm, Jim wrote:



wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

Sonex Xenos perhaps? I have no experience with it and am not sure what the
general consensus is (I doubt there is much informed opinion on them since
not too many have been built, so few would have first-hand experience; but
unless I am missing something their performance seems more than adequate
for training purposes.)

Upfront new: ~US$34,000 + ~1200 club man-hours to build.
Side-by-side seating: good for training?
Motorglider: Dispense with towplane costs.
Experimental: Lower part and labor costs.
Sonex provides directions on how to get it registered with the FAA as a
glider.

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/...Comparison.jpg

With a motorglider you do not "dispense with towplane costs" you
"replace towplane costs with motorglider costs" (and quite possibly
many more issues).

I would be surprised if a 24:1 (i.e. non-glider), homebuilt,
lightweight aluminum glider in a tail dragger configuration is meet
many of the practical needs of most glider clubs. I wonder what
getting insurance coverage for instruction on that would take.

The question was to replace L-13 Blaniks and looking for practical
experience. Is there anybody in the USA using any motorglider for
primary training? Can they share cost and operational experiences? How
many students per year go through to complete their licenses?

---

Wait, I know how about a ASK-21 and a towplane (or winch).

Darryl

Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider
ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a
glider rating in the entire US?

If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign
aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the
really low hanging fruit.

--
Mike Schumann

On Nov 8, 5:45*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 11/8/2010 10:09 AM, Frank Whiteley wrote:



On Nov 8, 12:30 am, Darryl *wrote:
On Nov 7, 11:02 pm, Jim *wrote:

*wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
...
On 11/8/2010 10:09 AM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:30 am, Darryl wrote:
On Nov 7, 11:02 pm, Jim wrote:



wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

Sonex Xenos perhaps? I have no experience with it and am not sure what
the
general consensus is (I doubt there is much informed opinion on them
since
not too many have been built, so few would have first-hand experience;
but
unless I am missing something their performance seems more than
adequate
for training purposes.)

Upfront new: ~US$34,000 + ~1200 club man-hours to build.
Side-by-side seating: good for training?
Motorglider: Dispense with towplane costs.
Experimental: Lower part and labor costs.
Sonex provides directions on how to get it registered with the FAA as a
glider.

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/...Comparison.jpg

With a motorglider you do not "dispense with towplane costs" you
"replace towplane costs with motorglider costs" (and quite possibly
many more issues).

I would be surprised if a 24:1 (i.e. non-glider), homebuilt,
lightweight aluminum glider in a tail dragger configuration is meet
many of the practical needs of most glider clubs. I wonder what
getting insurance coverage for instruction on that would take.

The question was to replace L-13 Blaniks and looking for practical
experience. Is there anybody in the USA using any motorglider for
primary training? Can they share cost and operational experiences? How
many students per year go through to complete their licenses?

---

Wait, I know how about a ASK-21 and a towplane (or winch).

Darryl

Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider ratings.
Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a glider
rating in the entire US?

If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign aimed
at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the really low
hanging fruit.

--
Mike Schumann

I question those numbers as well. I got into gliders 2008 and have known of
at least 4 or 5 add-ons at my small club since, and we are not located in a
hotbed of soaring activity.

Bob McKellar

Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider ratings.
Can this be right? *Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a glider
rating in the entire US?

If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign aimed
at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. *That's the really low
hanging fruit.

--
Mike Schumann

I question those numbers as well. *I got into gliders 2008 and have known of
at least 4 or 5 add-ons at my small club since, and we are not located in a
hotbed of soaring activity.

Bob McKellar

I don't disagree that the numbers appear low, but we don't have any
other collection methodology. The FAA got new servers last years and
you'd expect them to be able to sort out the data.

You can't even find a glider pilot examiner on the FAA web site. You
can find a full list by FSDO region, but there's nothing to indicate
glider examiners and FAA staff are not listed. Scottsdale FSDO
publishes a list, but I couldn't find any others that do. FAA has an
LSA (glider) examiner list.

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certific...r_examiner.pdf

Basically, the check ride candidate must contact the FSDO.

If we could get an exhaustive list of glider pilot examiners with good
e-mails, we could poll them.

I suspect only 50-60% of the examiners are SSA members. In my FSDO
region, 40% of DPE don't appear to have ever been SSA members.

Glad to hear of any other suggestions.

Frank Whiteley

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider
ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a
glider rating in the entire US?

If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign
aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the
really low hanging fruit.


Low hanging fruit? Perhaps not. I knew a fellow a fellow software
engineer (owned an Aztec), that was about to ditch a 6 figure software
career to fly commuters for peanuts because he "just loved to fly" (his
words). When i mentioned soaring to him, he just shook his head. It
either rings your chimes or it doesn't - and flying one thing does not
automatically translate into wanting to fly something else.

Hang gliding is a lot more accessible now since there is a lot more aero
towing. The funny thing is that when I mention hang gliding to sail
plane pilots, they shake their heads the same way.

Tony

On 11/17/2010 9:59 PM, Tony V wrote:

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider
ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a
glider rating in the entire US?

If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign
aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the
really low hanging fruit.


Low hanging fruit? Perhaps not. I knew a fellow a fellow software
engineer (owned an Aztec), that was about to ditch a 6 figure software
career to fly commuters for peanuts because he "just loved to fly" (his
words). When i mentioned soaring to him, he just shook his head. It
either rings your chimes or it doesn't - and flying one thing does not
automatically translate into wanting to fly something else.

Hang gliding is a lot more accessible now since there is a lot more aero
towing. The funny thing is that when I mention hang gliding to sail
plane pilots, they shake their heads the same way.

Tony

Did this guy ever take a glider ride?

--
Mike Schumann

At 20:36 24 November 2010, Mike Schumann wrote:
On 11/17/2010 9:59 PM, Tony V wrote:

http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/

I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on
glider
ratings. Can this be right? Last year, only 10 power pilots
added on a
glider rating in the entire US?
From the January 2010 issue to the December 2010 issue of
Soaring Magazine, we published in the Milestones section the
notices of about 20 power pilots who had added the glider rating.
It's pretty doubtful that 100% of the add-on rating recipients send
the photos and info to the magazine. (A few of the ratings in the
January, February issues may have been from 2009). FWIW
Chuck Coyne

If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign
aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. That's the
really low hanging fruit.


Low hanging fruit? Perhaps not. I knew a fellow a fellow software
engineer (owned an Aztec), that was about to ditch a 6 figure software
career to fly commuters for peanuts because he "just loved to fly" (his
words). When i mentioned soaring to him, he just shook his head. It
either rings your chimes or it doesn't - and flying one thing does not
automatically translate into wanting to fly something else.
Tony

Did this guy ever take a glider ride?


Not that I know of. He showed no interest at all.

Tony