Future Club Training Gliders

On Nov 9, 12:32*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Well, I'm one of those who got hooked by an ASK-21. I fly one of the
prettier glass toys and its gratifyingly shiny, but it is 41 years old
and has Libelle written on it. So, where does that put me on your scale?

Martin -

I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of
others here. No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo-
Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training. Your example of an
ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! Compa
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...33C-GWCV01.JPG
to
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._ASK_21_vr.jpg

The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can
tell which one is more modern and capable. My comments were aimed at
the people who've replied on this thread and talked about how they
worked hard to become a pilot, or transitioned through a bunch of
crappy ships to get to a good one. THEY are the exception. The
average citizen (at least in the USA) is not going to slog through all
that, and their interest-level is certainly going to be affected by
how modern (or at least modern-looking) the aircraft are. Its just
human nature.

--Noel

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:41:00 -0800, noel.wade wrote:

I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of
others here. No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo-
Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training.

No, I'm with you but a lot are arguing that even an G.103 is outrageous
when a 2-33 will do. I spoke up this time because there seemed to be a
hint of 'people who learn on glass will all be flying the latest and
greatest single seaters' and I wanted to see if I'd misread the writer:
seems that I had.

Your example of an
ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! Compa

I don't need to compare them. There's one of the Avenal 2-33s in my log
book. :-)

I like flying our club Juniors in winter or when there's some other
reason I'm not flying my Libelle and, as I've flown an ASK-23, a Ka-8 and
a PW-5, I reckon about there's an unfilled slot in my logbook that is the
same shape as a 1-26. I hear they're fun to fly even if they do penetrate
even worse than a Junior. Can they be winched?

The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can
tell which one is more modern and capable.

Sure, and I agree that's a no-brainer.

THEY are the exception. The average
citizen (at least in the USA) is not going to slog through all that, and
their interest-level is certainly going to be affected by how modern (or
at least modern-looking) the aircraft are. Its just human nature.

I'm probably one of them to some extent: the ASK-21 hooked me where an
ASK-13 couldn't, though to be fair that happened 10+ years after I had
the K-13 ride, I was no longer totally gung-ho about competition free
flight and was probably subconsciously looking for a new challenge.

There's a similarity: my favourite models always have been F1A towline
gliders and now winch launching is my preferred way of getting airborne,
outnumbering aero tows this year by better than 15:1.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Nov 9, 3:39*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:41:00 -0800, noel.wade wrote:
I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of
others here. *No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo-
Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training.

No, I'm with you but a lot are arguing that even an G.103 is outrageous
when a 2-33 will do. I spoke up this time because there seemed to be a
hint of 'people who learn on glass will all be flying the latest and
greatest single seaters' and I wanted to see if I'd misread the writer:
seems that I had.

Your example of an
ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! *Compa

I don't need to compare them. There's one of the Avenal 2-33s in my log
book. :-)

I like flying our club Juniors in winter or when there's some other
reason I'm not flying my Libelle and, as I've flown an ASK-23, a Ka-8 and
a PW-5, I reckon about there's an unfilled slot in my logbook that is the
same shape as a 1-26. I hear they're fun to fly even if they do penetrate
even worse than a Junior. Can they be winched?

The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can
tell which one is more modern and capable.

Sure, and I agree that's a no-brainer.

THEY are the exception. *The average
citizen (at least in the USA) is not going to slog through all that, and
their interest-level is certainly going to be affected by how modern (or
at least modern-looking) the aircraft are. *Its just human nature.

I'm probably one of them to some extent: the ASK-21 hooked me where an
ASK-13 couldn't, though to be fair that happened 10+ years after I had
the K-13 ride, I was no longer totally gung-ho about competition free
flight and was probably subconsciously looking for a new challenge.

There's a similarity: my favourite models always have been F1A towline
gliders and now winch launching is my preferred way of getting airborne,
outnumbering aero tows this year by better than 15:1.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I think there is something missed here. To say that one is shallow for
not training up in a primitive old glider isn't valid. If that were
true, then all you guys are the shallow ones, for not buying and
flying a 2-33. When I first showed up to take my glider ride 3 or 4
years ago, I jumped into a DG1000, paid my $200 to the private
operation, came back, and joined the club on the field. (The operation
is unusual because the DG1000 owner is a club CFIG and is towed up by
club towplanes, even for private rides, in direct competition with the
club trial ride program, and there are more advantages than negatives
in the arrangement.) I trained in L23s and the DG1000, with a $60 or
$75 per hour fee to use the DG1000 on top of tow fees. It was clear to
me that in most cases the learning went at exactly the same speed in
either ship, and I jumped into whichever was available.But the goal
was to fly a DG300 at some point, which I now do. In fact I owned it
long before I soloed and could fly it.

If I understand people to be saying "kids to day won't train in a 2-33
or an L23 on their way to flying a slippery ship, the will just give
up if they don't have a DG100 type plane", I think that is wrong. But
they do need to see a path to flying with the big dogs back in the
mountains or way up high at some point, in a nice plane.

Brian

On Nov 10, 11:41*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of
others here. *No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo-
Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training. *Your example of an
ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! *Compahttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eizer2-33C-GWC...
tohttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/SCHLEICHER_ASK_21_....

The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can
tell which one is more modern and capable.

Absolutely! Even a thirty year old ASK21 or Grob looks (and flies)
fabulous compared to an ASK13 (or 7), Blanik, or 2-33. I think every
club that can possibly swing it financially (including loans) should
upgrade as soon as possible. We switched from Blanik to 17 year old
Grobs in 1995 and I think it was a great move.

Where I'd quibble is whether people should be buying brand new ASK21's
TODAY. We looked at them several years ago but they're hellishly
expensive for what they are. It turned out that if you got a fixed
gear, fixed 18m span DG1000 with none of the optional extras then the
price was only a few thousand more than an ASK21 and can do everything
an ASK21 can do, but with 10 points more L/D.

Another benefit that is maybe seldom considered is that the DG1000 is
surprisingly quick and pleasant to rig and derig. I've done it with
just myself and one other person (but two on the root end is
definitely helpful). We've been taking ours on far more "away"
weekends than we used to do with the Grobs or Janus. People would
mysteriously disappear if you were rigging one of those! (I haven't
tried with an ASK21 so can't comment on rigging one)

A good trailer also makes a huge difference, both to rigging and to
towing. Our Grob literally doubled the fuel consumption of my car,
while the DG1000 seems to add about 25% - 30%.

http://hoult.org/bruce/Subaru_with_TA.jpg

vs

http://twitpic.com/11uvwc

On Nov 10, 5:36*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:41*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of
others here. *No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo-
Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training. *Your example of an
ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! *Compahttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eizer2-33C-GWC...
tohttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/SCHLEICHER_ASK_21_....

The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can
tell which one is more modern and capable.

Absolutely! Even a thirty year old ASK21 or Grob looks (and flies)
fabulous compared to an ASK13 (or 7), Blanik, or 2-33. *I think every
club that can possibly swing it financially (including loans) should
upgrade as soon as possible. We switched from Blanik to 17 year old
Grobs in 1995 and I think it was a great move.

Where I'd quibble is whether people should be buying brand new ASK21's
TODAY. We looked at them several years ago but they're hellishly
expensive for what they are. It turned out that if you got a fixed
gear, fixed 18m span DG1000 with none of the optional extras then the
price was only a few thousand more than an ASK21 and can do everything
an ASK21 can do, but with 10 points more L/D.

Another benefit that is maybe seldom considered is that the DG1000 is
surprisingly quick and pleasant to rig and derig. I've done it with
just myself and one other person (but two on the root end is
definitely helpful). We've been taking ours on far more "away"
weekends than we used to do with the Grobs or Janus. People would
mysteriously disappear if you were rigging one of those! (I haven't
tried with an ASK21 so can't comment on rigging one)

A good trailer also makes a huge difference, both to rigging and to
towing. Our Grob literally doubled the fuel consumption of my car,
while the DG1000 seems to add about 25% - 30%.

http://hoult.org/bruce/Subaru_with_TA.jpg

vs

http://twitpic.com/11uvwc

An ASK-21 also rigs easily enough to keep it in a trailer. Your
purchase arguments in favor of the DG1000 make sense.

Another factor is whether the club/FBO operates on weekends only
or 7 days per week if the weather is OK for flying. I can't see how
an ASK 21 or DG1000 can be economical if flown only on weekends
and/or is trailered for several months of the year. Still, finding
instructors and ride pilots who can reliably be available 7 days per
week isn't easy. Especially if you want them to work for free ;-)

On Nov 10, 4:36*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:41*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of
others here. *No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo-
Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training. *Your example of an
ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! *Compahttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eizer2-33C-GWC...
tohttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/SCHLEICHER_ASK_21_....

The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can
tell which one is more modern and capable.

Absolutely! Even a thirty year old ASK21 or Grob looks (and flies)
fabulous compared to an ASK13 (or 7), Blanik, or 2-33. *I think every
club that can possibly swing it financially (including loans) should
upgrade as soon as possible. We switched from Blanik to 17 year old
Grobs in 1995 and I think it was a great move.

Where I'd quibble is whether people should be buying brand new ASK21's
TODAY. We looked at them several years ago but they're hellishly
expensive for what they are. It turned out that if you got a fixed
gear, fixed 18m span DG1000 with none of the optional extras then the
price was only a few thousand more than an ASK21 and can do everything
an ASK21 can do, but with 10 points more L/D.

Another benefit that is maybe seldom considered is that the DG1000 is
surprisingly quick and pleasant to rig and derig. I've done it with
just myself and one other person (but two on the root end is
definitely helpful). We've been taking ours on far more "away"
weekends than we used to do with the Grobs or Janus. People would
mysteriously disappear if you were rigging one of those! (I haven't
tried with an ASK21 so can't comment on rigging one)

A good trailer also makes a huge difference, both to rigging and to
towing. Our Grob literally doubled the fuel consumption of my car,
while the DG1000 seems to add about 25% - 30%.

http://hoult.org/bruce/Subaru_with_TA.jpg

vs

http://twitpic.com/11uvwc

There are 3 DG-1000's at our glider field, from what I've seen they
can be solo rigged with the proper equipment.

Brad

In article Bruce Hoult writes:

Where I'd quibble is whether people should be buying brand new ASK21's
TODAY. We looked at them several years ago but they're hellishly
expensive for what they are. It turned out that if you got a fixed
gear, fixed 18m span DG1000 with none of the optional extras then the
price was only a few thousand more than an ASK21 and can do everything
an ASK21 can do, but with 10 points more L/D.

And the DG is also expensive. I am not certain about the service
life of any of these, but if they are 3000 hours to scrap, then the
current $102,500 price (74300 Euro posted by unclhank on 10/21/10)
$34.17 per hour just for the capital of the glider, not counting
maintenance, insurance, taxes, storage.

If you can run them longer, the cost goes down, but the hourly cost
of operation is still high.

Show the potential student the ask-12 or the dg-1000, and show him
the cost of operation, along with an old glider that doesn't have the
high hourly operating costs, and a lot will figure that saving a bunch
of money is good - it can mean more flying time in the less impresive
glider.

( Written by one who did a lot of my primary training in the least
expensive Cessna 150 I could find. I got more time in the air for
the same money, too. )

Alan

Hi Alan

The argument about cost of ownership is true, but you have the real cost
the wrong way around.

An all the bessl and whistles Duodiscus with a sustainer engine and top
of the line ground handling gear will cost you around $160k, the DG1000
is similar.
You can bring the costs down to ~$110K by speccing for club use.

So - a considerable investment.
But put the real numbers into a spreadsheet and it makes sense.
The new composite has an airframe life of 6000 hours initial + up to
15000 on extensions. So work on a time to trash of 6000 hours.
then consider the operating costs -
The maintenance effort on a 30-40 year old glider is considerable.
Recover costs lots in time and effort to do - and the glider is not
flying while that happens. Optimistically this is a three week job.
The tubes and timber rust, rot, bend and generally need attention -
particularly in the wet.
The older ones have skids that wear out and need replacement every few
years.
The instruments are often as old as the glider, and need refurbishment
(winter is great and cheap - others are less so)

Metal gliders get fatigue, and depending on where you operate, may need
very rare skills to maintain.

The composite fleet needs very little maintenance in comparison. I fly
at a couple of clubs.
One that has three Grob Twin Astirs with tens of thousands of launches
and hours between them. And , indeed after thirty years of intensive use
they are getting a little tired. Still look and fly a lot better than
what they replaced, and the actual cost of operation is lower. This club
has 20+ students at any one time and is thriving. T'other bunch have a
couple of Bergfalkes and a L13. It continues to stagger along - current
situation is L13 grounded (we took it out of service before the AD
because of loose rivets on the wings needing repair) and one Bergie out
of service for a new skid.

Both clubs have three aircraft - but the vintage operators battle to
consistently have two gliders airworthy and on the runway.

So - I am all for keeping the vintage stuff flying, but it is
uneconomical to depend on them for running a club. The cost of
maintenance, cost of downtime and cost of members who lose interest when
they see them is too high for them to be the sole training option in a
club operation. A "blended" approach like Lasham where there is some K13
and some glass makes a lot of sense. But the K13 is about the only wood
and fabric trainer I would recommend - and they are getting old.

Bruce
On 2010/11/11 8:59 AM, Alan wrote:
In Bruce writes:

Where I'd quibble is whether people should be buying brand new ASK21's
TODAY. We looked at them several years ago but they're hellishly
expensive for what they are. It turned out that if you got a fixed
gear, fixed 18m span DG1000 with none of the optional extras then the
price was only a few thousand more than an ASK21 and can do everything
an ASK21 can do, but with 10 points more L/D.

And the DG is also expensive. I am not certain about the service
life of any of these, but if they are 3000 hours to scrap, then the
current $102,500 price (74300 Euro posted by unclhank on 10/21/10)
$34.17 per hour just for the capital of the glider, not counting
maintenance, insurance, taxes, storage.

If you can run them longer, the cost goes down, but the hourly cost
of operation is still high.

Show the potential student the ask-12 or the dg-1000, and show him
the cost of operation, along with an old glider that doesn't have the
high hourly operating costs, and a lot will figure that saving a bunch
of money is good - it can mean more flying time in the less impresive
glider.

( Written by one who did a lot of my primary training in the least
expensive Cessna 150 I could find. I got more time in the air for
the same money, too. )

Alan

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

On Nov 10, 10:59*pm, (Alan) wrote:
In article Bruce Hoult writes:

Where I'd quibble is whether people should be buying brand new ASK21's
TODAY. We looked at them several years ago but they're hellishly
expensive for what they are. It turned out that if you got a fixed
gear, fixed 18m span DG1000 with none of the optional extras then the
price was only a few thousand more than an ASK21 and can do everything
an ASK21 can do, but with 10 points more L/D.

* And the DG is also expensive. *I am not certain about the service
life of any of these, but if they are 3000 hours to scrap, then the
current $102,500 price (74300 Euro posted by unclhank on 10/21/10)
$34.17 per hour just for the capital of the glider, not counting
maintenance, insurance, taxes, storage.

* If you can run them longer, the cost goes down, but the hourly cost
of operation is still high.

* Show the potential student the ask-12 or the dg-1000, and show him
the cost of operation, along with an old glider that doesn't have the
high hourly operating costs, and a lot will figure that saving a bunch
of money is good - it can mean more flying time in the less impresive
glider.

* ( Written by one who did a lot of my primary training in the least
expensive Cessna 150 I could find. *I got more time in the air for
the same money, too. )

* * * * Alan

Why would you cap a DG-1000 at a 3,000 hour life? There are already
published 3000, 6000, 9000 (and every 1000 hours) inspections for the
DG-1000. There are many high time ASK-21 around well beyond 3,000
hours. Many well used and patched up but still bright and shiny and
modern looking.

OTOH the price quoted did was too low. No trailer, instruments, other
options, etc. and I'm not sure a linear depreciation is the right
model.

Darryl