Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:12:03 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Been thinking about this situation since the question was first
posted. Here's what I think might be a reason. Art can fill the blanks
if he has additional info.

The original stated the guy was a private pilot who went to Canada and
then wound up in the RAF flying Hurricanes. It didn't indicate if he
had gone through a formal military pilot training course in Canada or
England.

Anybody who flew RAF aircraft underwent an RAF training course. Even
the first Eagle squadron volunteers did so in the winter of 1940.
Transfer into the USAAF from the RAF was voluntary for American
pilots, and some didn't want to do it, for various reasons (in one
case a sense of obligation to the RAF who had paid for his training
and posted him to a combat unit where the pre-war USAAC had rejected
him as a pilot, another because he throught he'd fail a more stringent
USAAF medical examination). However, most did, for various reasons -
the most common given being for the higher pay.

Since the guy had some experience, he could fill a space on the
schedule, but without a rating he couldn't be advanced to
pilot-in-command duties. Plausible explanation??

I suspect the explanation lies somewhere along those lines of
differing USAAF institutional training and type-command requirements.
It was rare but not unheard of for a single-engined pilot to convert
to multi-engined aircraft.

Gavin Bailey

"Presidente Alcazar"
Anybody who flew RAF aircraft underwent an RAF training course. Even
the first Eagle squadron volunteers did so in the winter of 1940.
Transfer into the USAAF from the RAF was voluntary for American
pilots, and some didn't want to do it, for various reasons (in one
case a sense of obligation to the RAF who had paid for his training
and posted him to a combat unit where the pre-war USAAC had rejected
him as a pilot, another because he throught he'd fail a more stringent
USAAF medical examination). However, most did, for various reasons -
the most common given being for the higher pay.

I expect all newly recruited pilots/aircrew would take training whether
they enlisted by coming up to Canada or going directly to Britain regardless
if they were trained. They would need some sort of conversion training.
In Canada this was done by the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
Canada was considered the training airdrome for the British Commonwealth.
They trained aircrews at many stations spread across Canada. Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners, Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners, Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you were
needed.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service" were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service" were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because the 100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was re-assigned to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to fight, the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you don't
volunteer for the AAC.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding
out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly
enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a
radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long
ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service"
were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because the
100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my
class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was re-assigned
to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to fight,
the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you don't
volunteer for the AAC.

But you have repeatedly told us how all of those maintenance guys, mess
personnel, armorers, etc., don't meet your criteria for having served in
combat. They were all also in the USAAF (I believe the AAC designation was
dropped while you were still in training, if not beforehand).

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 8:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding
out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly
enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a
radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long
ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service"
were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty. Maybe you were on a track for fighters but
suddenky you were transferred to mullti engine transitional because the
100th
bomb group was taking heavy losses and B-17 pilots were needed. Or in my
classification group at San Antonio aviation cadet center all 400 in my
class
were all classified as Bombardiers because of the heavy death toll among
bombardiers over europe. But no one that I ever heard of was re-assigned
to
non combat duty once they had volunteered for AAC. If you want to fight,
the
AAC would be glad to accomodate you. If you don't want to fight, you don't
volunteer for the AAC.

But you have repeatedly told us how all of those maintenance guys, mess
personnel, armorers, etc., don't meet your criteria for having served in
combat. They were all also in the USAAF (I believe the AAC designation was
dropped while you were still in training, if not beforehand).

Brooks


Arthur Kramer




Those of us who flew together were one group Those that stayed on the ground
were another group. And that is the way it was.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service" were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty.

Yeah, but a while back you made the comment that all anyone who really
wanted to get *into* the fight had to do was ask to be transferred to
the fighting, and they would. And that anyone who said they missed
out on fighting due to where they were assigned at the time was
basically hiding behind an excuse. But then in this thread you turn
around and say "Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were
assigned where you were needed." So which is it? Can everybody who
wants to fight ask for a transfer and be sent there, or do people
sometimes get stuck in capacities and places that aren't in the thick
of the action?

~Michael

Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: (Michael)
Date: 2/10/04 1:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/9/04 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Why would an RAF pilot become a USAAC co-pilot?
From: "Ed Majden"
Date: 2/9/04 10:58 AM Pacifi

Most wanted to
be pilots but the greater majority ended up as Navs, Air Gunners,
Wireless
Operators and Bomb aimers eventually assigned to No. 6 Bomber Group
(R.C.A.F.).
Ed



Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were assigned where you
were
needed.

Yep, for the most part (though I do know one WWII vet who, upon finding
out
his entire aviation cadet class was being cancelled and the newly enlisted
members being reassigned to other duties, flatly refused to train as a
radio
operator--and got his assignment to gunnery school that he was willing to
take). Kind of strange to hear you admit that, though--wasn't that long
ago
you were claiming that all of those who wanted to engage in direct combat
operations could do so, regardless of what the "needs of the service"
were.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer


Nobody got out of combat duty.

Yeah, but a while back you made the comment that all anyone who really
wanted to get *into* the fight had to do was ask to be transferred to
the fighting, and they would. And that anyone who said they missed
out on fighting due to where they were assigned at the time was
basically hiding behind an excuse. But then in this thread you turn
around and say "Makes no difference what you wanted to be. You were
assigned where you were needed." So which is it? Can everybody who
wants to fight ask for a transfer and be sent there, or do people
sometimes get stuck in capacities and places that aren't in the thick
of the action?

~Michael


I should have said that you were assigned to the COMBAT unit where you were
needed.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:58:08 GMT, "Ed Majden"
wrote:

I expect all newly recruited pilots/aircrew would take training whether
they enlisted by coming up to Canada or going directly to Britain regardless
if they were trained.

American recruits, who normally always joined the RCAF after crossing
into Canadian territory, would receive their Elementary Flying
Training in Canada. In general the final stage of training at an
Operational Training Unit was the only one reserved for in-theatre
provision, e.g. RCAF aircrew posted to the UK would receive their
final operational training at an RAF OTU or HCU.

The only exceptions to this were a minute number of Americans who
volunteered for RAF service in the UK and were accepted for RAF
training in the UK, almost all of whom did so in 1939-40. After that
point, the majority of (but not all) aircrew were shipped abroad
(typically to Canada, South Africa or Rhodesia) to begin their
training in the EATS.

Gavin Bailey