Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental

On 12/6/2010 9:40 AM, gliderman wrote:
On Dec 6, 5:04 am, wrote:
On Dec 2, 10:57 pm, wrote:

4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in
the way of paperwork?

5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic?

Well, there's the new rule, effective on April 16, 2011, athttp://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/d...
and the old rule, athttp://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/d...


One more question regarding a conversion like this. What might it do
to the resale value of the glider? Any input would be appreciated.

Paul G

Replies to this question should be interesting! Here's one...

Assuming that whatever a person does to the ship's hardware once it's
converted to the Experimental category is 'essentially trivial' (as in,
doesn't tinker with primary structure), a reasonable answer is 'very little.'
For examples you can go as far back as Wil Schuemann's Diamant and
'Schuemannized Libelle' from the early 1970's. More recent examples would be
(eventually) ATC-ed German ships imported prior to obtaining reciprocal U.S.
licensing.

That noted, conversion likely *will* reduce the potential pool of buyers,
since there seems (to me, anyway) to be a proportion of U.S. pilots who simply
*never* will consider purchasing an experimentally licensed glider.

Regards,
Bob - never owned a non-experimental, post-1-26 sailplane - W.

another consideration is how restrictive the experimental operating
limitations are.

many experimental - racing/exhibition operating limitaitons from "back
in the day" are quite unrestrictive and literally worth their weight
in unobtanium.

however if you take your Ka6 or otherwise semi-common type certified
glider and put it into the experimental - racing/exhibition category
in the modern era it will have restrictions that involve faxing FSDO's
annual letters and getting special permission to operate more than X
miles from home. These in and of itself aren't too tough to deal with
but as a buyer why would I want the hassle when there are plenty of
other non-restricted gliders out there available to buy?

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

On Dec 6, 9:45*am, Tony wrote:
another consideration is how restrictive the experimental operating
limitations are.

many experimental - racing/exhibition operating limitaitons from "back
in the day" are quite unrestrictive and literally worth their weight
in unobtanium.

however if you take your Ka6 or otherwise semi-common type certified
glider and put it into the experimental - racing/exhibition category
in the modern era it will have restrictions that involve faxing FSDO's
annual letters and getting special permission to operate more than X
miles from home. *These in and of itself aren't too tough to deal with
but as a buyer why would I want the hassle when there are plenty of
other non-restricted gliders out there available to buy?

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

And to the question of limiting the pool of potential buyers..
Any buyer.. if he does his research and wants your experimental glider
will buy it.

However, if he does his research, he will find that he may have to
reaccomplish the CofA with updated Operating Limitations when he moves
the glider to a new location. Unless he is already on your airport.

We had some club members that bought a glider in KY and moved it west.
Then they found the Operating Limitations were written for the glider
being based in Penn. The entire time the glider was in KY, that owner
had not updated the Cof A or the Ops Limits, nor had he faxed in an
annual Program Letter as required. The entire time the glider was in
KY. It was flying illegally without a valid CofA.. and the A&P signing
off the "condition inspections" did not catch it.

They moved it west, had to reaccomplish the Cof A inspections and
Operating Limitations at an additional cost of about $500 to the DAR
and was issued a new CofA. Yes, the FSDO can process the Operations
Limitations and CofA, if they are used to dealing with gliders and
understand what they are doing. If not.. you can hand walk them
through it, with a little pain and frustration.

If the purchaser does his research and knows.. then it is not an
issue. He knows what he is up against.

Personally, an older experimental glider with the less restrictive
Operating Limitations are worth they weight in Gold. So are gliders
with Standard Certificates that do not have "Operating Limitations",
such as some of the newer 304CZ models.

Yes, an A&P can sign off the experimental "annual condition
inspection". An IA is required for a standard CofA.

T

On 12-7-2010 03:56, T wrote:


Yes, an A&P can sign off the experimental "annual condition
inspection". An IA is required for a standard CofA.

T

Is there a huge cost difference between an A&P doing the inspection
versus an IA doing it?

On Dec 7, 5:06*am, Scott wrote:

Is there a huge cost difference between an A&P doing the inspection
versus an IA doing it?

The issue is most likely to be availability. Not all A&P have an
Inspection Authorization but all with IA must be either Airframe or
Powerplant rated or both. You only need one with Airframe approval
for an experimental (exhibition and/or racing) sailplane condition
inspection if it is not self launch or sustainer equipped.

If you have lots of people available with an Airframe rating the
chances of finding one with a good price are better. I have use the
same person to inspect my ASW-28 since 2004. In 2004 he was only
airframe approved. Over the years he added Powerplant and then
Inspection Authorization. His prices have increased but I don't think
that was due to his increased qualifications. The advantage to me of
his increased ratings is that he now also inspects by airplane.

Andy

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

On Dec 7, 11:48*am, gliderman wrote:
I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

Maybe if it looks like a homebuilt when done.
Report back on your results.
LOL
UH

The restrictions on Exhibition/Racing are minimal if you negotiate the
Operating Limitations properly.

You are simply Exhibiting when just flying around, or practising
exhibiting, and when there is a contest, you are racing,
or practicing for racing. Every time any pilot flies I'd say they are
practicing and honing their skills really!

Here are my flight area restrictions Negotiated in my Operating
Limitations.

"Prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely
populated areas, except for takeoffs and landings or unless directed
by ATC or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe
emergency landing..."

So in effect I can fly anywhere I have the equipment for with VFR.

I don't have any range limitations nor Program letters to submit and
no matter where I go, fly-ins, contests etc, I'm always practicing my
skills to exhibit or race.

"21.191
(d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities,
performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture,
television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition
flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying
to and from such air shows and productions.
(e) Air racing. Participating in air races, including (for such
participants) practicing for such air races and flying to and from
racing events."

Not very restrictive, although flying for hire is one restriction I
can think of.

The whole process is not nearly as big a deal as others are lead to
believe and the people who have not
gone through the process are unjustifiably paranoid about it, although
there has surely been a case or two
that has not gone as well, but that is probably the exception more
than the rule.

Also my inspection by the FAA inspectors in 2010 took 20-30 minutes
and cost $0 (They do not charge for C of A inspections)
I think my C of A and OP Lims may have cost $5 if I recall correctly.
You could also pay for a DAR to inspect if you are in a hurry
and your FAA folks are very busy but you may only save a couple weeks
as the DAR looses time having to send stuff in, while the
FAA folks simply bring your paperwork to the inspection in person and
sign it right there.



On Dec 7, 11:39*am, wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:48*am, gliderman wrote:

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

Maybe if it looks like a homebuilt when done.
Report back on your results.
LOL
UH

On Dec 7, 2:46*pm, jb92563 wrote:
The restrictions on Exhibition/Racing are minimal if you negotiate the
Operating Limitations properly.

You are simply Exhibiting when just flying around, or practising
exhibiting, and when there is a contest, you are racing,
or practicing for racing. Every time any pilot flies I'd say they are
practicing and honing their skills really!

Here are my flight area restrictions Negotiated in my Operating
Limitations.

"Prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely
populated areas, except for takeoffs and landings or unless directed
by ATC or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe
emergency landing..."

So in effect I can fly anywhere I have the equipment for with VFR.

I don't have any range limitations nor Program letters to submit and
no matter where I go, fly-ins, contests etc, I'm always practicing my
skills to exhibit or race.

"21.191
*(d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities,
performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture,
television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition
flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying
to and from such air shows and productions.
(e) Air racing. Participating in air races, including (for such
participants) practicing for such air races and flying to and from
racing events."

Not very restrictive, although flying for hire is one restriction I
can think of.

The whole process is not nearly as big a deal as others are lead to
believe and the people who have not
gone through the process are unjustifiably paranoid about it, although
there has surely been a case or two
that has not gone as well, but that is probably the exception more
than the rule.

Also my inspection by the FAA *inspectors in 2010 took 20-30 minutes
and cost $0 (They do not charge for C of A inspections)
I think my C of A and OP Lims may have cost $5 if I recall correctly.
You could also pay for a DAR to inspect if you are in a hurry
and your FAA folks are very busy but you may only save a couple weeks
as the DAR looses time having to send stuff in, while the
FAA folks simply bring your paperwork to the inspection in person and
sign it right there.

On Dec 7, 11:39*am, wrote:



On Dec 7, 11:48*am, gliderman wrote:

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

Maybe if it looks like a homebuilt when done.
Report back on your results.
LOL
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think all you are telling us is that you worked with a helpful
inspector at a reasonable FSDO. Not all inspectors at all FSDOs are
quite to so easy to deal with. Here in the Phoenix area we seem to
have the new broom sweeps clean set. Hopefully there will be better
standardization when the new issue of the order comes into effect.

What FSDO did you use? Maybe there will be a rush of glider owners to
get their ops lims revised.

Andy

On 12-7-2010 16:48, gliderman wrote:

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G
Nope. There's that pesky 51% rule.