Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

On Dec 7, 11:48*am, gliderman wrote:
I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

Maybe if it looks like a homebuilt when done.
Report back on your results.
LOL
UH

The restrictions on Exhibition/Racing are minimal if you negotiate the
Operating Limitations properly.

You are simply Exhibiting when just flying around, or practising
exhibiting, and when there is a contest, you are racing,
or practicing for racing. Every time any pilot flies I'd say they are
practicing and honing their skills really!

Here are my flight area restrictions Negotiated in my Operating
Limitations.

"Prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely
populated areas, except for takeoffs and landings or unless directed
by ATC or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe
emergency landing..."

So in effect I can fly anywhere I have the equipment for with VFR.

I don't have any range limitations nor Program letters to submit and
no matter where I go, fly-ins, contests etc, I'm always practicing my
skills to exhibit or race.

"21.191
(d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities,
performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture,
television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition
flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying
to and from such air shows and productions.
(e) Air racing. Participating in air races, including (for such
participants) practicing for such air races and flying to and from
racing events."

Not very restrictive, although flying for hire is one restriction I
can think of.

The whole process is not nearly as big a deal as others are lead to
believe and the people who have not
gone through the process are unjustifiably paranoid about it, although
there has surely been a case or two
that has not gone as well, but that is probably the exception more
than the rule.

Also my inspection by the FAA inspectors in 2010 took 20-30 minutes
and cost $0 (They do not charge for C of A inspections)
I think my C of A and OP Lims may have cost $5 if I recall correctly.
You could also pay for a DAR to inspect if you are in a hurry
and your FAA folks are very busy but you may only save a couple weeks
as the DAR looses time having to send stuff in, while the
FAA folks simply bring your paperwork to the inspection in person and
sign it right there.



On Dec 7, 11:39*am, wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:48*am, gliderman wrote:

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

Maybe if it looks like a homebuilt when done.
Report back on your results.
LOL
UH

On Dec 7, 2:46*pm, jb92563 wrote:
The restrictions on Exhibition/Racing are minimal if you negotiate the
Operating Limitations properly.

You are simply Exhibiting when just flying around, or practising
exhibiting, and when there is a contest, you are racing,
or practicing for racing. Every time any pilot flies I'd say they are
practicing and honing their skills really!

Here are my flight area restrictions Negotiated in my Operating
Limitations.

"Prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely
populated areas, except for takeoffs and landings or unless directed
by ATC or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe
emergency landing..."

So in effect I can fly anywhere I have the equipment for with VFR.

I don't have any range limitations nor Program letters to submit and
no matter where I go, fly-ins, contests etc, I'm always practicing my
skills to exhibit or race.

"21.191
*(d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities,
performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture,
television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition
flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying
to and from such air shows and productions.
(e) Air racing. Participating in air races, including (for such
participants) practicing for such air races and flying to and from
racing events."

Not very restrictive, although flying for hire is one restriction I
can think of.

The whole process is not nearly as big a deal as others are lead to
believe and the people who have not
gone through the process are unjustifiably paranoid about it, although
there has surely been a case or two
that has not gone as well, but that is probably the exception more
than the rule.

Also my inspection by the FAA *inspectors in 2010 took 20-30 minutes
and cost $0 (They do not charge for C of A inspections)
I think my C of A and OP Lims may have cost $5 if I recall correctly.
You could also pay for a DAR to inspect if you are in a hurry
and your FAA folks are very busy but you may only save a couple weeks
as the DAR looses time having to send stuff in, while the
FAA folks simply bring your paperwork to the inspection in person and
sign it right there.

On Dec 7, 11:39*am, wrote:



On Dec 7, 11:48*am, gliderman wrote:

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G

Maybe if it looks like a homebuilt when done.
Report back on your results.
LOL
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think all you are telling us is that you worked with a helpful
inspector at a reasonable FSDO. Not all inspectors at all FSDOs are
quite to so easy to deal with. Here in the Phoenix area we seem to
have the new broom sweeps clean set. Hopefully there will be better
standardization when the new issue of the order comes into effect.

What FSDO did you use? Maybe there will be a rush of glider owners to
get their ops lims revised.

Andy

On 12-7-2010 16:48, gliderman wrote:

I own 3 experimental - amatuer builts which I thoroughly enjoy.
However the restrictions on them are no where near as restrictive as
experimental - racing/exhibition.

So I wonder if I "substantially modify" a certified glider (such as
adding winglets or Schuemannizing,) might I be able to successfully
argue that it belongs in the amatuer built category?

Paul G
Nope. There's that pesky 51% rule.

Folks,

As the thread originator, I appreciated and enjoyed all the comments and shared wisdom....thanks!

After reading all the pros/cons I think for my needs and level of experience the right decision is to just leave everything "as is", not get too wrapped up chasing paperwork and doing a rug dance for the Feds but instead spend that time flying instead!

Again, thanks for all the info.

Rob

ps-as to the canopy gas strut replacement, just did that on the ASW-19b I have. We used a 1000 newton strut (Eastern Sailplane's rec., I believe) on one that does NOT have the lift up panel...a 700 nm was on it and it lasted only about 4-5 years.

We cut grooves in each end fitting of the strut, then compressed it and wrapped it several times with safety wire to hold it until we got it installed, then cut the wire.

It sure did feel like I was holding a safety-wired live cobra until I got that thing in place and the bolts and nuts back in! Hope the higher rated strut lasts as long as I fly this thing!