Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp

On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 8:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

This sounds like a neat Idea, but I think there's nothing wrong with
calling an acual contest task. A good example of a XC camp/starter
contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider
Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and
acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest
is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner"
task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both
categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest.

I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and
learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest
in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the
memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real
sports class conest this year.

Peter

.... A good example of a XC camp/starter
contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider
Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and
acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest
is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner"
task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both
categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest.

I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and
learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest
in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the
memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real
sports class conest this year.

Peter

This option will be available for real (sanctioned) regional contests
this year. You can have two handicapped classes, call it "pro" and
"am" or "leisure" and "seizure", one with big tasks and one with a
more beginner friendly task.

So let's make Sky Soaring a regional contest this year!

Among the many advantages of running an event by ssa rules is that
pilots learn how contests work and discover they might be fun.

I'm surprised too if the Arizona crowd wants go-anywhere-you-want
distance tasks. Long unrestricted MAT are not particularly popular
elsewhere, to put it mildly. But if that's what you want, the rules
let you do it.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

John:

Perhaps I should have used the term "issues" rather than "problems".

Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

Mike

Mike:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm keeping this open because we
really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
attractive as possible.


Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *

This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
in to it.

Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
huge turn areas.


However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.


Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!


Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
"camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.


In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
still available by waiver!

John

On Dec 15, 8:48*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Mike:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. *I'm keeping this open because we
really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
attractive as possible.



Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *

This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
in to it.

Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
huge turn areas.



However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.



Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!



Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
"camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.



In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
still available by waiver!

John

I should also add that it's not as if Arizona has no competitive
racing. The Arizona Soaring Association race series is well-attended
and has many weekend races at a number of gliderports around the State
- in 2010 we completed 18 out of 20 scheduled days' racing!

We just thought we would do something different.

Our team flying has often taken the format where the lead flier will
nominate a turnpoint and the group then agrees on a course -
essentially a multi-pilot MAT. At the camp. we may also nominate some
tasks or turnpoints for training purposes to keep those unfamiliar
with the area over landable terrain.

Mike

On Dec 15, 7:48*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Mike:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. *I'm keeping this open because we
really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
attractive as possible.



Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *

This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
in to it.

Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
huge turn areas.



However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.



Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!



Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
"camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.



In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
still available by waiver!

John

For me, it would be best if you decided it is a real "Camp" or a real
"Contest". A good XC camp has a mentor teamed up with 1-2 pilots
during the flight for the purpose of training, demonstration,
stretching goals, etc. The groups stick together for the day/week. In
a contest it's every pilot for themselves, and the goal is to put as
much distance between you and the other guy as possible (unless you
are a leach, of course...) You tend to fly alone, radio silent, and
isolated. The two formats are by definition, opposed to each other.

For anyone that has attended AirSailing events, you know they have
struck a nice balance by having a focused XC camp, and a separate,
very informal, but still official contest. The contest is wonderful
because while it is competitive, the tone is more cooperative, with
the more experienced pilots helping the less, and briefings including
lots of "newbie" details that help pilots learn the ropes. Task are
challenging, but not super aggressive, and picked with safety/landouts
in mind. A sanctioned contest also allows new pilots a way to be
ranked. Once in the air though, pilots are on their own.

One thing I have never seen, that would be interesting to me is "in
the air" training for contests. Pilots would be paired for skill
level and ship type. each pair would have a mentor pilot. A task
would be called. The mentor pilot would then help them make decisions
about weather, routes, thermals to skip or take, safety, landouts,
final glide, etc. along the course. The trio would stick together for
the whole task. At the end of the day, perhaps they could be scored
as "teams" just to learn the intricacies/strategies around the contest
rules and how they relate to decisions made in flight. Some post
flight log analysis would be super helpful too, to figure out where
improvements could be made to XC speed.

Matt

On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest.

I heard that SSA would not give approval for a Region 9 South
contest, which is what Tucson club had wanted to host. No idea why,
but I'm not happy about it.

http://www.asa-soaring.org/forum/top...ro+in+May+2011

Andy

On Dec 15, 10:39*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest.

I heard *that SSA would not give approval for a Region 9 South
contest, which is what Tucson club had wanted to host. *No idea why,
but I'm not happy about it.

http://www.asa-soaring.org/forum/top...2&forum_id=4&T....

Andy

There is absolutely no reason you can't have a Region 9 south contest.
Only issue would be if the
requested date conflicts with another contest.
It would be useful to find out who did not approve the request so this
can be addressed.
The contest committee wants to support contests in whatever way we can
consistent with safety etc.
I've run "rookie schools" as part of regionals for years to get new
pilots going. You guys could too. We do
ground sessions before flying, and individual as well as group
coaching. It's fun.
And, for 2011, by waiver, radio use in regionals will be available if
folks want to try it.
Go For It
UH

Sounds like you'll have a good camp/contest and have some fun and
hopefully some new XC pilots will learn a lot. I wish it wasn't a two
day drive from here to Tuscon or I'd consider joining you.

I'm also really glad this thread came up. I read through the rules
committee report that was posted yesterday but didn't really
understand the implications of these rule changes. Thanks Hank and
John for the descriptions of how the rules are becoming more flexible
for regional competitions. Now, if I could only find a regional
within a days drive of Wichita for 2011...