Powerflarm's unknown effect on the first contests in US

On Jan 8, 9:09*am, hretting wrote:
I for one fear a disaster in the making and feel Flarm should be
banned from contest to allow a period of familarization. It is my
belief that Pilots + New Toys X unreal expectations + *(venders x $$$)
divided by NPilots(pilots who are looking out the #!%#ing cockpit) =
****ty day at Black Rock (an old Spencer Tracy movie).
But hey, this is the opinion of a 33,000 ++ hour electrojet captain
who has seen more than his share of knuckhead pilots doing stupid
sh_t.
And now we have non-Flarmers being declared automatic leachers and
Charlie Spratt wanna-bees determining how he's going to run a
contest.
Careful.... Careful.....
Get a senior instructor (UH) who is not emotional (UH). Since this is
where we are heading, make him (UH) supreme guru who will create a
blending process to reduce the risk of Techno-Crashes. A phasing in
plan if you will. He's a sucker for extra large T-shirt with a glider
on it.
Flarm at the seniors..good god...might as well put a hood on everyone.
R

Wow, who ****ed in your wheaties this morning?

How you can state that Flarm should be banned from contests, after a
season where it would have probably prevented two mid-airs and saved
one life?

Where do you get that "Flarmers" will be able to leach better than non-
flarmers. Really? Kindly explain how that will work. I've never seen
that fear raised in any discussion of Flarm.

The whole leaching question is a tempest in a teapot. If it bothers
you, turn on Stealth mode and you can't be leached (but will still get
collision warning).

So if I understand your position, it's fine for the knuckleheads in
their electrojet to not have to look out the window and be warned of
an impending midair by their TCAS (I see you have a xponder in your
glider) but not OK for glider pilots to have a similar safety net -
despite having to fly in a much more collision-prone environment!

And the Seniors is EXACTLY where Flarm should be MANDATORY. Think
about it, and what age does to vision, flexibility, reaction time,
etc.

Sounds like you need to get that senior instructor and have the whole
concept to Flarm and active collision avoidance explained to you!

Kirk
66

First, my apologies for not spelling " leech" correctly and passing it
on to you. Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.
My stand is that while you believe the two midairs would have been
prevented by FLARM....I believe that the rapid insertion of Flarm into
the contest regime will create a risk greater than the one we are
trying to reduce.
I believe to reduce that specific risk, we allow for the "Novelty"
period followed by the "Functional check-out" period before we include
it into the contest regime.
Flarm will change the "paranoia" level of the group. Not right
away.....but slowly. This is the dynamics that we must guard.
First the dip, then the spike, then the balance.

You're right about the knuckleheads not looking out.....
But I do.
R

On Jan 8, 7:03*pm, hretting wrote:
First, my apologies for not spelling " leech" correctly and passing it
on to you. Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.
My stand is that while you believe the two midairs would have been
prevented by FLARM....I believe that the rapid insertion of Flarm into
the contest regime will create a risk greater than the one we are
trying to reduce.
I believe to reduce that specific risk, we allow for the "Novelty"
period followed by the "Functional check-out" period before we include
it into the contest regime.
Flarm will change the "paranoia" level of the group. Not right
away.....but slowly. This is the dynamics that we must guard.
First the dip, then the spike, then the balance.

You're right about the knuckleheads not looking out.....
But I do.
R

Thats fine, but I have to disagree. FLARM is not a complex system,
and if you have advanced to the point that you can race a glider while
watching your PDA, glide computer, etc., adding FLARM to the mix is
not going to be a big change.

In fact, it's a lot less of a distractor than the current fad of huge
color moving map displays in racing cockpits. Yeah, I need a Clearnav/
Ultimate so I don't get lost. Just like the guy in the Cirrus (the
one with 4 seats, a motor and a parachute, not the nice glider) with
his Garmin 1000 needs it on a CAVU day in Arizona, where you can see
every mountain in the state at the same time. Look out the window?
That's so 20th Century!

If nothing else, just mute it and don't look at it, that way at least
others will know you are there. Kinda like a transponder/TCAS setup.
I've got some nice black duct tape you can use to cover the display if
it distracts you...

Anyway, the experience in the rest of the world with FLARM seems
pretty positive. That's good enough for me.

Check 6, and Cheers!

Kirk
66

On Jan 8, 6:03*pm, hretting wrote:

Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.

Sorry. That was a joke - it's what the winking emoticon means.

The climb rate displays in WinPilot/SeeYou do look pretty
interesting. We'll have to see how much they really turn out to be
useful - or a distraction. It's one thing to be able to see a glider
with a good climb rate on a screen and quite another to be able to get
to the indicated location, find the thermal and actually achieve the
same climb rate.

The only way to know is to try it. I think the RC approach for 2011 is
a responsible and balanced one given both the safety potential and the
uncertainties. I for one would feel pretty bad if we lost another
pilot having ignored the opportunity to do something significant.

Stealth Mode on/off will, I suspect, be a major decision to make as we
get going. I'd encourage the RC to collect feedback contest-by-contest
so we can learn and adapt with each contest experience.

9B

On Jan 9, 8:06*am, Andy wrote:
On Jan 8, 6:03*pm, hretting wrote:

Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.

Sorry. That was a joke - it's what the winking emoticon means.

The climb rate displays in WinPilot/SeeYou do look pretty
interesting. *We'll have to see how much they really turn out to be
useful - or a distraction. *It's one thing to be able to see a glider
with a good climb rate on a screen and quite another to be able to get
to the indicated location, find the thermal and actually achieve the
same climb rate.

The only way to know is to try it. I think the RC approach for 2011 is
a responsible and balanced one given both the safety potential and the
uncertainties. I for one would feel pretty bad if we lost another
pilot having ignored the opportunity to do something significant.

Stealth Mode on/off will, I suspect, be a major decision to make as we
get going. I'd encourage the RC to collect feedback contest-by-contest
so we can learn and adapt with each contest experience.

9B

Hi,
I've updated my web site with details and pricing on the new
PowerFlarm Antileaching Device.
It looks very interesting. Its ability to totally prevent leaching is
amazing.
It will be compatible with all Flarm Units and PowerFlarm Units. I
have many pre-orders. It will be ready for immediate shipment soon.
You can see details and pre-order he

http://www.craggyaero.com/cloaking.htm

I can’ wait to fly with one!

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

I see the version you have on your web site is for 125/250VAC.
When will you have a 12VDC version available?

At 15:13 10 January 2011, Richard wrote:
Hi,
I've updated my web site with details and pricing on the new
PowerFlarm Antileaching Device.
It looks very interesting. Its ability to totally prevent leaching is
amazing.
It will be compatible with all Flarm Units and PowerFlarm Units. I
have many pre-orders. It will be ready for immediate shipment soon.
You can see details and pre-order he

http://www.craggyaero.com/cloaking.htm

I can=92 wait to fly with one!

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Jan 10, 7:38*am, Big Wings wrote:
I see the version you have on your web site is for 125/250VAC.
When will you have a 12VDC version available?

At 15:13 10 January 2011, Richard wrote:



Hi,
I've updated my web site with details and pricing on the new
PowerFlarm Antileaching Device.
It looks very interesting. *Its ability to totally prevent leaching is
amazing.
It will be compatible with all Flarm Units and PowerFlarm Units. *I
have many pre-orders. *It will be ready for immediate shipment soon.
You can see details and pre-order he

http://www.craggyaero.com/cloaking.htm

I can=92 wait to fly with one!

Richard
www.craggyaero.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OH No! I see a preorder recall in my future.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

I think there is too much FUD around Flarm (That's IBM speak for Fear
Uncertainty and Doubt)

Experience of introducing Flarm in the south African racing environment
was effectively painless. There was never a decrease in safety
attributable to Flarm.

To my knowledge there was no material increase in leeching. If you can
keep up to leech, the Flarm is unlikely to help much...
If you are close enough to the other thermal to be able to use the
information about relative climb rate - you can probably verify the
differential as effectively visually. Certainly I am not aware of anyone
gaining advantage this way.

Have contests become safer? Hard to say - but I am a lot more
comfortable with no beeps emanating from the flarm. OK - in my case that
is generally because the others are so far ahead.

And yes - mid airs, in contests and others were a significant percentage
of fatals in SA. There are at least three pilots who would still be with
us if they had Flarm working. Since Flarm became common we have not had
any. Apparently Flarm does what it says on the box - improves safety in
glider operations...

Some use it well, some don't - as with everything.

Cheers
Bruce

On 2011/01/09 4:03 AM, hretting wrote:
First, my apologies for not spelling " leech" correctly and passing it
on to you. Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.
My stand is that while you believe the two midairs would have been
prevented by FLARM....I believe that the rapid insertion of Flarm into
the contest regime will create a risk greater than the one we are
trying to reduce.
I believe to reduce that specific risk, we allow for the "Novelty"
period followed by the "Functional check-out" period before we include
it into the contest regime.
Flarm will change the "paranoia" level of the group. Not right
away.....but slowly. This is the dynamics that we must guard.
First the dip, then the spike, then the balance.

You're right about the knuckleheads not looking out.....
But I do.
R






--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:56:29 +0200, BruceGreeff
wrote:

I think there is too much FUD around Flarm (That's IBM speak for Fear
Uncertainty and Doubt)

We've been through the same "FUD" in Italy ;-)

Experience of introducing Flarm in the south African racing environment
was effectively painless. There was never a decrease in safety
attributable to Flarm.

I've flown more than 20 competitions, maybe 30, since Flarm was
available in Europe (2005 I think). So far, the races have been safer
in my opinion. No collisions between Flarm-equipped gliders.

To my knowledge there was no material increase in leeching. If you can
keep up to leech, the Flarm is unlikely to help much...

Since Flarm "radar" or display has been available (a couple of racing
seasons), it has been just a little easier to catch-up with a glider I
was trying to leech, after I lost visual contact for a while.

If you are close enough to the other thermal to be able to use the
information about relative climb rate - you can probably verify the
differential as effectively visually.

The climb rate is so unreliable (most probably uncompensated) that it
never helped me locate a thermal I didn't see earlier (gliders, birds
etc.).
It has helped me understand that I was not centered correctly, on some
occasions.
Once the two glider are established in the same thermal in a steady
climb, the value shown by the display becomes comparable and reliable.
By them it's too late to be of any use except: "darn, I have to
squeeze the best lift there apparently is".

Under cloudstreets, or convergence lines, it is now easier to compare
the different flight paths and decisions. I may say that I now learn
much more from each flight.


Have contests become safer?

I believe contest are safer. And, some may be surprised by this
statement, more fun for me.
Let me explain. Racing gliders are now a bit easier to spot in the
sky, and I get more "awareness" of how they're doing. So, I feel more
involved.

. There are at least three pilots who would still be with
us if they had Flarm working.

Same in Italy. There was a collision, killing one. The other glider
had no Flarm on board.


Some use it well, some don't - as with everything.

Cloud flying is prohibited in Italy. In the pre-start tactical game, I
have seen Flarm objects flying higher than cloudbase, above me.
Was Flarm only a witness of their behaviour, or an encouragement? I
don't know, but I know that loggers and software allow for analysis
and, if guilty, penalization of the offenders.

aldo cernezzi
-
www.voloavela.it
The Italian Gliding magazine



Cheers
Bruce

On Jan 8, 7:17*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Where do you get that "Flarmers" will be able to leach better than non-
flarmers. Really? Kindly explain how that will work. I've never seen
that fear raised in any discussion of Flarm.

The whole leaching question is a tempest in a teapot. *If it bothers
you, turn on Stealth mode and you can't be leached (but will still get
collision warning).
Kirk
66

Kirk,
My understanding is that if stealth mode is off then a pilot can see
the climb rate of other flarm equipped gliders in the area: One way
to do it is using Winpilot - see this from the winpilot site:
"FLARM Support: Added the ability to track several other gliders in
the vicinity that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
visually the position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also
indicate weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their
current climb rate is."
see the graphic on the main page.
http://www.winpilot.com/images4/News2.gif

seeyou mobile does the same as do other systems:
http://gliderpilot.org/files/FlarmFl...le%20Flarm.jpg


So is it a fair competition if in early 2011 part of the fleet is
allowed to share remote thermal sensing data?
Like shooting fish in a barrel, not a contest. To me it appears that
we are allowing team flying - with good displays and coordination 2 or
more pilots could team fly a whole contest season and never have to
talk on the radio. So maybe I turn my stealth mode on to prevent
others from getting my data but that won't stop other pilots from team
flying via flarm.

I do not understand why we would introduce it "unrestricted" for
2011. I realize we/Rules Committee do[es] not have familiarity with
the system, but other countries do, can we learn from them rather than
risk as much chaos? Andy posted the UK 2010 flarm rules earlier in
this discussion, to me it makes sense for us to start off with the
stealth mode required too, that gets the anti-collision function and
reduces the data sharing issues. This is my request to the Rules
Committee.


To Henry's point i do think there is some risk, especially early on of
pilots focusing on their "show me where to find lift radar screen"
that they don't look out the window for the non flarm guys as much.
Ironically could be more dangerous. omg I am agreeing with Henry
on something? ;-)

Chris