Another midair in the pattern

On Jan 17, 9:22*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
*Scott wrote........
Absolutely not. Just a freedom loving American who doesn't need
government to grow ever bigger and dictate every aspect of my life. I
consider myself to be responsible enough to watch out for myself.
Powered planes (modern ones with electrical systems) almost always have
radios and they sometimes meet in midair. I think they call these events
'accidents', same as car crashes. Do cars need radios installed so
drivers can communicate their every move to each other? If everyone
cries to the government to "Please, save us!" they certainly will step
up to the task. I'm not looking for a Nanny State...

Oh come on Scott, that argument is pathetic. Its like saying cars use
head lights to aid in seeing each other at night, but we still have
accidents at night, soooooooooooooooo we don't need headlights! No,
make that ludicrous!
The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when
trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near
soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER
GLIDER * * GLIDER * * * *thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over the
pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate
told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he
does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to
takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't
listening to one of those hated radios be prudent?
JJ

You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" Or "Anybody on base or
final?" Or, "What runway are you using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie

On 1/17/2011 9:46 AM, wrote:
On Jan 17, 9:22 am, JJ wrote:
Scott wrote........
Absolutely not. Just a freedom loving American who doesn't need
government to grow ever bigger and dictate every aspect of my life. I
consider myself to be responsible enough to watch out for myself.
Powered planes (modern ones with electrical systems) almost always have
radios and they sometimes meet in midair. I think they call these events
'accidents', same as car crashes. Do cars need radios installed so
drivers can communicate their every move to each other? If everyone
cries to the government to "Please, save us!" they certainly will step
up to the task. I'm not looking for a Nanny State...

Oh come on Scott, that argument is pathetic. Its like saying cars use
head lights to aid in seeing each other at night, but we still have
accidents at night, soooooooooooooooo we don't need headlights! No,
make that ludicrous!
The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when
trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near
soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER
GLIDER GLIDER thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over the
pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate
told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he
does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to
takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't
listening to one of those hated radios be prudent?
JJ

You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" Or "Anybody on base or
final?" Or, "What runway are you using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie

If you don't identify what airport you are talking about, that would be
misuse. If you identify your location and keep it short, why would this
be misuse?

--
Mike Schumann

You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or
final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse.
Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran
into........
JJ

On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or
final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse.
Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran
into........
JJ


The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when
trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near
soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER
GLIDER GLIDER thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over
the
pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate
told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he
does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to
takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't
listening to one of those hated radios be prudent?
JJ

JJ,

You're heart is in the right place, but.....

BTW...I love radios. I install aircraft radios for a living. I use
radio in every glider or airplane I fly. I do understand that there
are limitations of what two way radio for collision avoidance,
however

But, if you want to prevent midairs, you have to use the tools
correctly and wisely.
There are a couple of problems with your radio broadcast above……..
First of all, on which frequency would that power pilot broadcast?
CTAF? 123.3? 123.5?
Would the gliders in the area be on the frequency on which he
broadcast? Maybe the ones in or near the traffic pattern would be on
CTAF but the others flying around would most likely not.
Now the pilots asks a question, a yes or no question, (this is the
improper part)…..He asks, “Any gliders in my area?” Well, what would
you expect him to hear in return?
“Nope, no gliders”??? Of course not, because if there were no
gliders there would be nobody to answer “no!” But what if there were
gliders around, but they did not hear the transmission, or they did
not answer for any of a bunch of reasons (on a different freq)?.……So
now can this pilot assume there are no gliders, because nobody
answered his question? Of course not.

So the only possible answer to this "yes or no question" is
“yes” (So why ask in the first place?)

Let’s say somebody does answer……so it goes like this…(Q)”Any gliders
in my area?”….(A)”yep”….ok so now what?……It becomes a game of twenty
questions…

“Where are you?” “No, where are you? Etc.”

Now let’s say there are 10 gliders in the area, and five of them
answer the radio call, all at the same time!!!! Garble!

Let’s say that three answer and 15 don’t……….See nothing useful is
gained from this improper radio work!

But let’s go back to the beginning………this guy is flying over a glider
operation….he knows this because it says so on the sectional, and the
facilities directory…….so he already has the answer to the dumb
question…….”YES! there are gliders in my area!” (no need to ask on
the radio....just assume there are gliders around!)

I would be just as dumb to fly around asking, “Are there any jet
liners in my area? Or maybe flying over Akron and transmitting, “Any
blimps around here?, please advise”

So how should it work? Big difference.

The pilot should first identify to whom he is talking…….

“Joe’s gliderport….. traffic…..

Then who he is….

“Beechcraft twin N55BC”

Then where he is:

“5 miles east, 14000 descending to 12000

Then his intentions:

“Transitioning your area, 12,000 westbound”

Then shut up and listen and look out the window…………..

That’s all there is to it………..
Other aircraft in the area (gliders or airplanes or whatever)….if they
hear this transmission, will simply decide if it is a factor or not…
If not…they do nothing…..If it is a factor they simply follow up…

“Beechcraft 55BC…..this is glider…..4 miles east of Joe’s…..
12,000…..looking for you.

Done!….simple to the point…..


Cookie

So you expect the pilots who fly around in Hawkers to continuously
broadcast, "Any gliders in my area?"

JJ - She - not he...

Not often we can comment on lady drivers in this sport :-)

On 2011/01/17 11:29 PM, JJ Sinclair wrote:

You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" Or "Anybody on base or
final?" Or, "What runway are you using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse.
Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran
into........
JJ


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

On Jan 17, 5:08*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:

You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or
final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse.
Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran
into........
JJ

The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when
trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near
soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER
GLIDER * * GLIDER * * * *thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over
the
pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate
told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he
does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to
takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't
listening to one of those hated radios be prudent?
JJ

JJ,

You're heart is in the right place, but.....

BTW...I love radios. * I install aircraft radios for a living. * I use
radio in every glider or airplane I fly. *I do understand that there
are *limitations of what two way radio for collision avoidance,
however

But, if you want to prevent midairs, you have to use the tools
correctly and wisely.
There are a couple of problems with your radio broadcast above……..
First of all, on which frequency would that power pilot broadcast?
CTAF? *123.3? *123.5?
Would the gliders in the area be on the frequency on which he
broadcast? *Maybe the ones in or near the traffic pattern would be on
CTAF but the others flying around would most likely not.
Now the pilots asks a question, a yes or no question, *(this is the
improper part)…..He asks, “Any gliders in my area?” * Well, what would
you expect him to hear in return?
“Nope, no gliders”??? * Of course not, because if there were no
gliders there would be nobody to answer “no!” *But what if there were
gliders around, but they did not hear the transmission, or they did
not answer for any of a bunch of reasons (on a different freq)?.……So
now can this pilot assume there are no gliders, because nobody
answered his question? * Of course not.

So the only possible answer to this "yes or no question" is
“yes” * (So why ask in the first place?)

Let’s say somebody does answer……so it goes like this…(Q)”Any gliders
in my area?”….(A)”yep”….ok so now what?……It becomes a game of twenty
questions…

“Where are you?” * “No, where are you? *Etc.”

Now let’s say there are 10 gliders in the area, and five of them
answer the radio call, all at the same time!!!! * *Garble!

Let’s say that three answer and 15 don’t……….See nothing useful is
gained from this improper radio work!

But let’s go back to the beginning………this guy is flying over a glider
operation….he knows this because it says so on the sectional, and the
facilities directory…….so he already has the answer to the dumb
question…….”YES! *there are gliders in my area!” *(no need to ask on
the radio....just assume there are gliders around!)

I would be just as dumb to fly around asking, “Are there any jet
liners in my area? * Or maybe flying over Akron and transmitting, “Any
blimps around here?, please advise”

So how should it work? *Big difference.

The pilot should first identify to whom he is talking…….

“Joe’s gliderport….. traffic…..

Then who he is….

“Beechcraft twin N55BC”

Then where he is:

“5 miles east, 14000 descending to 12000

Then his intentions:

“Transitioning your area, 12,000 westbound”

Then shut up and listen and look out the window…………..

That’s all there is to it………..
Other aircraft in the area (gliders or airplanes or whatever)….if they
hear this transmission, will simply decide if it is a factor or not…
If not…they do nothing…..If it is a factor they simply follow up…

“Beechcraft *55BC…..this is glider…..4 miles east of Joe’s…..
12,000…..looking for you.

Done!….simple to the point…..

Cookie

So you expect the pilots who fly around in Hawkers to continuously
broadcast, "Any gliders in my area?"

My my, Cookie how you can ramble. The turbo pilot makes that call as
he passes east of Minden because he knows thats where we can be found
frolicking. He calls on all three freq's. If he hears nothing, does he
assume there are no gliders up? Hell no, he keeps his head out of the
cockpit, like the gal in the Hawker should have been
doing...........actually she did one hell of a good job after the
collision, but thats another story. If I hear the call I respond;
Glider JJ is at 12K on the ridge just south of Dayton and he replies
with no factor or looking. Damned good use of the radio, I say. One
can hear a lot of misuse like: Hey Joe, where are you? I'm over here.
I don't see you, etc.
JJ

On Jan 18, 9:02*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Jan 17, 5:08*pm, "





wrote:
On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:

You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio.
Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or
final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses
of the radio............

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse.
Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran
into........
JJ

The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when
trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near
soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER
GLIDER * * GLIDER * * * *thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over
the
pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate
told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he
does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to
takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't
listening to one of those hated radios be prudent?
JJ

JJ,

You're heart is in the right place, but.....

BTW...I love radios. * I install aircraft radios for a living. * I use
radio in every glider or airplane I fly. *I do understand that there
are *limitations of what two way radio for collision avoidance,
however

But, if you want to prevent midairs, you have to use the tools
correctly and wisely.
There are a couple of problems with your radio broadcast above……..
First of all, on which frequency would that power pilot broadcast?
CTAF? *123.3? *123.5?
Would the gliders in the area be on the frequency on which he
broadcast? *Maybe the ones in or near the traffic pattern would be on
CTAF but the others flying around would most likely not.
Now the pilots asks a question, a yes or no question, *(this is the
improper part)…..He asks, “Any gliders in my area?” * Well, what would
you expect him to hear in return?
“Nope, no gliders”??? * Of course not, because if there were no
gliders there would be nobody to answer “no!” *But what if there were
gliders around, but they did not hear the transmission, or they did
not answer for any of a bunch of reasons (on a different freq)?.……So
now can this pilot assume there are no gliders, because nobody
answered his question? * Of course not.

So the only possible answer to this "yes or no question" is
“yes” * (So why ask in the first place?)

Let’s say somebody does answer……so it goes like this…(Q)”Any gliders
in my area?”….(A)”yep”….ok so now what?……It becomes a game of twenty
questions…

“Where are you?” * “No, where are you? *Etc.”

Now let’s say there are 10 gliders in the area, and five of them
answer the radio call, all at the same time!!!! * *Garble!

Let’s say that three answer and 15 don’t……….See nothing useful is
gained from this improper radio work!

But let’s go back to the beginning………this guy is flying over a glider
operation….he knows this because it says so on the sectional, and the
facilities directory…….so he already has the answer to the dumb
question…….”YES! *there are gliders in my area!” *(no need to ask on
the radio....just assume there are gliders around!)

I would be just as dumb to fly around asking, “Are there any jet
liners in my area? * Or maybe flying over Akron and transmitting, “Any
blimps around here?, please advise”

So how should it work? *Big difference.

The pilot should first identify to whom he is talking…….

“Joe’s gliderport….. traffic…..

Then who he is….

“Beechcraft twin N55BC”

Then where he is:

“5 miles east, 14000 descending to 12000

Then his intentions:

“Transitioning your area, 12,000 westbound”

Then shut up and listen and look out the window…………..

That’s all there is to it………..
Other aircraft in the area (gliders or airplanes or whatever)….if they
hear this transmission, will simply decide if it is a factor or not…
If not…they do nothing…..If it is a factor they simply follow up…

“Beechcraft *55BC…..this is glider…..4 miles east of Joe’s…...
12,000…..looking for you.

Done!….simple to the point…..

Cookie

So you expect the pilots who fly around in Hawkers to continuously
broadcast, "Any gliders in my area?"

My my, Cookie how you can ramble. The turbo pilot makes that call as
he passes east of Minden because he knows thats where we can be found
frolicking. He calls on all three freq's. If he hears nothing, does he
assume there are no gliders up? Hell no, he keeps his head out of the
cockpit, like the gal in the Hawker should have been
doing...........actually she did one hell of a good job after the
collision, but thats another story. If I hear the call I respond;
Glider JJ is at 12K on the ridge just south of Dayton and he replies
with no factor or looking. Damned good use of the radio, I say. One
can hear a lot of misuse like: Hey Joe, where are you? I'm over here.
I don't see you, etc.
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

JJ,

Three frequencies at the same time?

Cookie

here's something that I wrote for GBSC students a long time ago.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...ent/radio.html

Tony

On Jan 18, 10:00*am, Tony V wrote:
here's something that I wrote for GBSC students a long time ago.http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...ent/radio.html

Tony

Nice!

You mention that when we make "blind" transmissions that we don't
expect an answer........

This is my point about the problem with JJ's scenario...You can't go
asking questions on CTAF.

Cookie

This is my point about the problem with JJ's *scenario...You can't go
asking questions on CTAF.

Cookie

Why not? I have been known to appoint myself the local flight ops
officer when several people are trying to land. You are number 3, Sven
Vctor, I'm on downwind and Bavo Charlie is on
final................there is a tow plane in the area, where are you
Blue Tow?
The 'proper use' of the radio is not about some imagined users code,
its about establishing and maintaining seperation among airport users,
some of who can't loiter or go around.
JJ