[USA] What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:
At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down -- Flarm and
the organizers will get it figured out for Uvalde.

Worlds should include a simple power-flarm rental program.

The wording should recognize that other anti-collision systems may
emerge in the future. The Flarm requirement is only in place because
right now Flarm is the only viable device. So write the rule "every
glider must carry an approved anti-collision device" and the list of
"approved devices" right now reads 1. Flarm 2. Power-Flarm.

You don't mention the question whether stealth mode is a) allowed b)
mandated. At Szeged there was a rule that it was mandated, which was
totally unenforced and totally ignored. IGC needs either to enforce
the rule (a pain in the butt) or not have it. (This is in local
procedures, but local procedures have to conform to IGC norms. So,
local procedures can't say "you must use stealth" mode -- or if they
do, they must follow a verification procedure which the IGC will
write. Good luck with that one.)

Additionally, we will vote on:

The future WGC calendar
The site of the 2014 WGC

Interesting that at a meeting with a lot of "safety" discussion one
site is in the Alps, and another is in the forests and lakes.

Ballast in the 13.5 meter class

1. Get rid of this class! The "legacy" gliders PW5, Russia, etc. will
be instantly outdated the minute somebody designs a new glider to this
class rule (sparrowhawk?) -- or just saws a few meters off the wing
of an LS4. The last thing we need is a new class!

Seriously. There is a nice vision of small ultralight gliders and
giving them a place to race. The right place for PW5, Russia,
Sparrowhawk, Apis, etc. is in a handicapped lower performance version
of club class. Split club in 2 at the 1.0 handicap range.

But none of these gliders will survive in a 13.5 meter class. For
that, you build a mini version of an ASW27 made out of super expensive
lightweight materials, redesigned for lower Reynolds numbers.

2. If they do go ahead with this class, it should have ballast. If
there is no ballast, then the design that is optimal for winning
worlds has a quite high wingloading, making the glider unsuitable for
clubs and new pilots. That makes it a "specialist" tiny class at the
outset.

Handicaps in the 20 meter 2 seat class

Or else it is the "arcus" class and all the other existing gliders are
obsolete. Handicaps will also allow gliders designed for this class to
remain easy to fly and useable by clubs, able to make small tradeoffs
of useability for performance. For example, without handicaps, non-
retractable nosewheels will disappear; designers will either make them
retractable or have to put in monster mains that swing forward.

Handicaps aren't appropriate in every class, but this class certainly
should have them.

The Club class handicap list
Use of GPS altitude above FL 500

I couldn't find this one. I hope this is for altitude records only, as
it would cause unholy chaos in competitions. Airspace restrictions are
barometric, and all our instruments want barometric!

Pilot ID in the declaration
Medals for team performances
Using GPS for Silver and Gold Altitude

Of course. Does anyone even bother with badges anymore or just go
OLC?


Details on all the proposals are athttp://www.fai.org/gliding/igc_plenary11

What are your views on these issues? *How should USA vote? *Let me
know here, or by email, or in person at the SSA Conference.

The fai website has a lot of other discussion about safety issues.
Great! Some comments

-"Safety pays" proposal to give contest points for gliders that meet
certain safety standards. This won't work in practice for lots of
reasons. And what's the problem we're trying to fix here? There are
lots of crashes at glider championships, but so far as I can tell zero
crash, damage or injury is the result of people flying unsafe
uncertified gliders.

- If they're really serious about safety, they should
1) Put in a "hard deck" finish at 250 meters, with no speed points
below (See Szeged finish crash),
2) Implement altitude-limited starts with a requirement to spend 2
minutes below the start height, to stop all the silly prestart cloud
flying and VNE dives below start heights
3) Get rid of the switch from speed to distance points, which is
behind all the start roulette and gaggling.

-The "permit to fly" controversy = should Dianas be allowed to
compete. If a glider and pilot are legal to fly in the country where
the contest is held, they should be allowed to fly. The IGC should not
get in the certification business. Innovation and competition are
good!

-Minor issue. The IGC ranking system doesn't work for those of us who
don't fly in Europe, which unfairly disadvantages us when slots are
scarce.

Thanks for representing us!

John Cochrane


Rick Sheppe
usa.igc.fai 'at' gmail.com

On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:

At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down

John,

What rule would you propose? How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message.

Andy

On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:

At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down

John,

What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message.

Andy

A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." It's part of the scrutineering. I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane

On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:









On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:

At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down

John,

What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message.

Andy

A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane

I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. I love the OLC and am a participant. However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.

On Jan 25, 1:01*pm, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:

On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:

At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down

John,

What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message..

Andy

A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane

I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. *I love the OLC and am a participant. *However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. *The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. *Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. *There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.

Lane - +1! I love the badge program. Our pilots earned a lot of A,B,
and C badges at the club last year and hopefully we can do the same
next year. I also spent a fair amount of time working with our new XC
pilots and managed to get 100% first time approval on all of our badge
applications. We had a lot of fun!

Badges are a great tool.

They give the pilot motivation and structure to set out on a planned
flight as opposed to heading off wherever the weather looks good.

Don't get me wrong - there are days when just following the good lift is
huge fun, and some long and impressive flights are made on OLC that way.
However, the discipline of having to plan a flight - predict where the
weather will be, declare the thing and fly it is invaluable.

When you move up to contests the task often gets set for the purpose of
challenging the pilots. Contests are generally won in the poor
conditions where the pilot who knows how to keep going makes points.
Getting there takes experience that badges give.

So - for me badges involve a lot more commitment, and deliberation and
skill development. They teach the pilot to have a clear idea of his/her
intentions for the day. Without that I see people drift around for a
while and then lose interest. These skills will all stand you in good
stead on the OLC, but I advocate starting with badges.

Log the flights on OLC by all means.
Now - if it jusr stops raining here before winter comes around

Cheers
Bruce

On 2011/01/25 9:12 PM, Tony wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:01 pm, wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50 pm, John
wrote:


SNIP

Lane - +1! I love the badge program. Our pilots earned a lot of A,B,
and C badges at the club last year and hopefully we can do the same
next year. I also spent a fair amount of time working with our new XC
pilots and managed to get 100% first time approval on all of our badge
applications. We had a lot of fun!

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

On Jan 25, 1:01*pm, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:

On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:

At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down

John,

What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message..

Andy

A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane

I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. *I love the OLC and am a participant. *However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. *The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. *Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. *There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.

I'm sorry if it came out wrong -- no "slam" intended at all. And the
whole badge idea is great -- a set of concrete goals to help pilots
cut the apron strings and go on to start flying cross country.

I just noticed that more pilots seem to be moving straight to OLC and
contests and not pursuing badges any more. Kudos to those who do.

John Cochrane

On Jan 25, 2:01*pm, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:





On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:

On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:

At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *

No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down

John,

What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message..

Andy

A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane

I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. *I love the OLC and am a participant. *However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. *The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. *Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. *There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I violently agree!
The badge program sets a series of good objectives.
UH

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:01:34 -0800, lanebush wrote:

I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. I love the OLC and am a participant. However, the OLC is not
the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides real
inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user friendly
but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming the badge
program please.

+1

In addition I'd like to point out that the badge system, at least as my
club uses it, is a direct stepping stone to competition flying. This is
because we start out by encouraging the use of predeclared tasks for all
XC flying:

- Silver distance: fly to a designated gliding club and land there

- 100 km diploma: this is a UK qualification that requires a
predeclared 100 km task to be scored. 1st leg involves simply flying
the task. 2nd leg involves flying the task and achieving a handicapped
65+ kph task speed.

- Gold distance: we usually fly that as a Diamond Goal flight and claiming
for both

- Diamond distance: again we pre-declare it.

Our prime reason for pre-declaring an xc flight and leaving a written
declaration at the launch point is safety: if the pilot doesn't return or
ring in after a land-out we have some idea of where to search. Secondly,
flying a predeclared task and making correct use of FAI or beer-can
turnpoints is good for honing and keeping navigation skills.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |