IGC 13.5m class discussion

Perseverative behaviour.

We created the World class at 13.5m - stuffed the introduction up.
Can't easily stop, because then we have to admit to the world, and the
world class glider's owners that this was a mistake.

So - hope is our strategy - we will open the world class up to other
gliders, and call it the 13.5m class and somehow that will have people
clamouring to compete in them.

The illogic is only exceeded by the predictability of the consequences.

Scarce resourses will be allocated to a class that has three major
disadvantages out of the block:
It will cost as much or more to compete in the class than in Club, or
even in Standards with an older glider.
For the entry level pilot there is already club class / sports class
that is cheaper, and handicapped. And the gliders are great for weekend
flying too.
Anyone who is seriously competitive is going to be drawn to the highest
performance they can afford.

If anyone can see some major advantage to having yet another class let
me know. Frankly it is getting ridiculous. If we carry on like this
there is still a chance I can be world champion in some class.

There used to be "THE WORLDS" one class , one champion. I buy that three
or maybe at a stretch four classes make sense. But no more.
In south Africa we race "18m & Open" , 15m and Club classes. You could
add a two seater class if you wanted to - so make it four - but the 15m
class is getting pretty thin because the Club class is more competitive
and more fun with its handicaps.

In our generally strong conditions the open class gliders actually seem
to be at a disadvantage to the 18m ships that can get to higher
wingloading. Used to be 15m wingspan was open, we are still flying that
way here. It still works.

Ever more classes just dilutes effort, and competition.

Cheers
Bruce

On 2011/01/27 7:10 PM, John Cochrane wrote:
If the objective is to create a venue for a bunch of existing gliders
to race, handicapping seems the only way to go. Club class works that
way. So if the point is to have a race for PW5s, Russias, Silents,
etc. to race, the only viable answer is to create a low-performance
"club lite" class. Club class works great with roughly handicaps 1.0
- 0.9 (US) or 1.0 - 1.1 (Europe). So "below 1.0" is the natural way to
go. If the point is to give existing gliders a place to race, there
isn't much point to a wingspan limitation either.

If the objective is to create a class for completely new yet-to-be
designed gliders, then the natural structure is a class without
handicaps and with simple rules. If they want to do this, I favor
water ballast, so that empty wingloadings and stall speeds can be
low.

But why on earth do that? The absolutely last thing we need is a new
class for gliders that absolutely nobody is building or clamoring to
fly! Do some market research before starting a class! At least for 18m
the gliders came first and the class later.

Judging from the price and performance difference between 15 m and
18m, an optimized 13.5 m glider is going to cost only about $10,000
less than a 15 m glider (except they may substitute to exotic
materials to save weight), and deliver 40:1 performance at relatively
high wingloading. Does anyone want to fly such a thing?

John Cochrane

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

BruceGreeff wrote:

The illogic is only exceeded by the predictability of the consequences.


It's perfectly logical. The ultimate goal is to have so many classes
that there'll be one competitor per class and everyone walks away with a
"first place". :-)

Tony

On Jan 27, 7:25*pm, Tony V wrote:
BruceGreeff wrote:
The illogic is only exceeded by the predictability of the consequences.

It's perfectly logical. The ultimate goal is to have so many classes
that there'll be one competitor per class and everyone walks away with a
"first place". :-)

Tony

I support the creation of the new 13.5 meter class. In the past 11
summers I have flown a glider with less than a 13.5 meter span more
than 1200 hours and 30, 000 miles cross country. Having been involved
in soaring off and on for over fifty years, I have also flown gliders
with spans of 15 to 19 meters about the same amount of time and miles.

There some pretty neat things about short wing gliders. They tend to
be lighter and easier to rig than larger gliders. This is nice for
older flyers and their older helpers. Just picking up the tail of many
of our 30 year gliders to put on a tail dolly can result in a hernia
for a 63 year old flyer. Moving the lighter gliders around on the
ground is easier. For example getting a PW-5 or Sparrow Hawk off of a
busy GA airport runway is a snap. Experienced Sparrow Hawk pilots one
man rig without a 800 dollar one man rigger.

Short wings increase the number of safe land out places. I have
landed the short wings in about ten places that would have totaled a
15 or 18 meter glider. The lower landing energy and speed of a
lighter glider is also a plus.

To me all gliders are pretty slow moving. The sensations in small or
large gliders are about the same, the main difference is the speed on
the score sheet. We all seem to try to return to our starting place
at the end of the day anyway.

I left soaring in 1978. I had a Standard Libelle which I loved but
was not (in my mind) competitive. I decided to do something different
and started racing sail boats. I noticed that the less expensive and
smaller the boat the more fun and comradship in the fleet. I do not
know why that is the case, but that is my opinion. In soaring the
last ten years, it seems to me that the people really having the most
fun are the 1-26 ers.

I do not see that continuing to have a place for short wing gliders to
race and set records really takes anything away from any other class.
I think it is especialy neat that the class is being opened up gliders
other than the PW-5. There are seveal really neat gliders that will
be able to fly in the 13.5 meter class. Think of all the time,
effort, and money that has been spent designing and building these
gliders.

If you have not tried it, don't ____ _____ __.

Bill Snead
6W

On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:37:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Experienced Sparrow Hawk pilots one
man rig without a 800 dollar one man rigger.

For the $44.000 you currently have to pay for a Sparrowhawk you can
buy a really nice ASW-20 and at least 15 one-man riggers of $800
each...



There are seveal really neat gliders that will
be able to fly in the 13.5 meter class. Think of all the time,
effort, and money that has been spent designing and building these
gliders.

If you have not tried it, don't ____ _____ __.

Problem of any less-than-15m class is that noone is interested in such
a glider in the countries where soaring is poular (German, Austria,
France, UK, et cetera), therefore - as Markus Graeber pointed out -
participation in an international contest in such a class is always
going to be poor. No manufacturer is ever going to design a glider
that offers less performance than current club-class ships.



What I always wonder about:
Since most of these gliders are concentrated in the US, why don't you
simply organize your own contest and ignore the IGC classes?

One of the most popular competitions in Germany is the "Pokal der
alten Langohren", a competition for obsolete open class ships like
ASW-17 and Nimbus 2. Since a couple of years we have competitions for
obsolete 15m-class ships, Ka-8, the French have an ASK-13
competition...



Andreas

I support the creation of the new 13.5 meter class. *In the past 11
summers I have flown a glider with less than a 13.5 meter span more
than 1200 hours and 30, 000 miles cross country. *Having been involved
in soaring off and on for over fifty years, I have also flown gliders
with spans of 15 to 19 meters about the same amount of time and miles.

There some pretty neat things about short wing gliders. *They tend to
be lighter and easier to rig than larger gliders. *This is nice for
older flyers and their older helpers. Just picking up the tail of many
of our 30 year gliders to put on a tail dolly can result in a hernia
for a 63 year old flyer. Moving the lighter gliders around on the
ground is easier. *For example getting a PW-5 or Sparrow Hawk off of a
busy GA airport runway is a snap. *Experienced Sparrow Hawk pilots one
man rig without a *800 dollar one man rigger.

Short wings increase the number of safe land out places. *I have
landed the short wings in about ten places that would have totaled a
15 or 18 meter glider. *The lower landing energy and speed of a
lighter glider is also a plus.

To me all gliders are pretty slow moving. *The sensations in small or
large gliders are about the same, the main difference is the speed on
the score sheet. *We all seem to try to return to our starting place
at the end of the day anyway.

I left soaring in 1978. *I had a Standard Libelle which I loved but
was not (in my mind) competitive. *I decided to do something different
and started racing sail boats. *I noticed that the less expensive and
smaller the boat the more fun and comradship in the fleet. *I do not
know why that is the case, but that is my opinion. *In soaring the
last ten years, it seems to me that the people really having the most
fun are the 1-26 ers.

I do not see that continuing to have a place for short wing gliders to
race and set records really takes anything away from any other class.
I think it is especialy neat that the class is being opened up gliders
other than the PW-5. *There are seveal really neat gliders that will
be able to fly in the 13.5 meter class. *Think of all the time,
effort, and money that has been spent designing and building these
gliders.

If you have not tried it, don't ____ *_____ __.

Bill Snead
6W

Bill:

Your points are well taken, and my comments were not one of the usual
anti-PW5 rants on r.a.s.

The main point is that your PW5 -- or any other light weight, easy to
fly, easy to rig and inexepensive glider -- will not last long in 13.5
meter class. You will not have a place to race the glider you like so
much, or any other like it.

The PW5 is already not the highest performing 13.5 meter glider. And
the minute anyone produces a modern 13.5 meter glider whose design is
optimized for performance, you're really toast. That's true whether or
not they allow ballast. An optimized no-ballast glider with a modern
wing, aerodynamic fuselage, and high wingloading will easily
outperform the PW5.

The outcome of this class is inevitable.There will be one worlds with
a mix of gliders. In the next one, only the highest performing
existing glider will show up. (russia? sparrowhawk? silent? I haven't
kept up.) and all the others will again have no place to race.

The minute a new glider is designed for world level competition in
this class, retire all of the above from racing. The new glider will
look like a scaled down ASW27. (Or maybe a scaled up version of those
monster RC models we've seen on r.a.s. lately). It will cost nearly as
much too. It will be relatively useless as an easy to fly, assemble,
etc. club glider.

We've been through all this before. The IGC split standard class in
two, so that existing flapped (Pik 20) and unflapped (Standard cirrus)
gliders would each have a home. In 3 years new gliders came out
(Discus, ventus, 19,20) optimized to each classes' rules, and those
existing gliders were all obsolete. Until club came along.

So where are you going to race a PW5 in a few years? You'll be toast
in 13.5 meter class. The club class is growing and they won't let you
in. Sports class is either going to die out, or become a ridiculous
class combining only PW5 and Nimbus 4. And that's only in the US.
There is no sports in the rest of the world.

The only answer to keep YOU racing in YOUR PW5 is a handicapped class
for lower performance gliders. I would think you'd be leading the
charge.

John Cochrane

On Jan 28, 10:05*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
So where are you going to race a PW5 in a few years? You'll be toast
in 13.5 meter class. The club class is growing and they won't let you
in.

Just to be clear, the reason the Club Class is keeping to a restricted
handicap range and specified gliders within that range is that it
makes for better handicapped racing. Its a well proven concept (except
here in the US) and draws from a LARGE number of relatively affordable
gliders worldwide ( and could from @ 1100+ just on the US register).

I know that the PW is very competitive against ships like the Libelle
- I know because pilots at PW Worlds waxed me with their PW's. But you
can not task the current Club Class ships with a PW on assigned tasks
(which many pilots still love and want to fly) and expect both to get
a "fair shake."

A Club Class "B" is an excellent idea to keep these ships racing - but
what are the raw numbers of potential gliders in a "B" Club Class? and
how many would turn up at a contest? We have an idea but we simply
don't know. But like with IGC Club Class here in the US, if we want to
explore the concept, we need to run the contests. Then let the chips
fall where the interest is actually generated.

Tim McAllister EY

On Jan 28, 4:55*pm, Tim wrote:
On Jan 28, 10:05*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

So where are you going to race a PW5 in a few years? You'll be toast
in 13.5 meter class. The club class is growing and they won't let you
in.

Just to be clear, the reason the Club Class is keeping to a restricted
handicap range and specified gliders within that range is that it
makes for better handicapped racing. Its a well proven concept (except
here in the US) and draws from a LARGE number of relatively affordable
gliders worldwide ( and could from @ 1100+ just on the US register).

I know that the PW is very competitive against ships like the Libelle
- I know because pilots at PW Worlds waxed me with their PW's. But you
can not task the current Club Class ships with a PW on assigned tasks
(which many pilots still love and want to fly) and expect both to get
a "fair shake."

A Club Class "B" is an excellent idea to keep these ships racing - but
what are the raw numbers of potential gliders in a "B" Club Class? and
how many would turn up at a contest? We have an idea but we simply
don't know. But like with IGC Club Class here in the US, if we want to
explore the concept, we need to run the contests. Then let the chips
fall where the interest is actually generated.

Tim McAllister EY

I am embarrassed. I thought the new 13.5 meter class was to be
handicapped. I should have been better informed before making a
comment.

Bill Snead
6W

On Jan 28, 6:05*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
I support the creation of the new 13.5 meter class. *In the past 11
summers I have flown a glider with less than a 13.5 meter span more
than 1200 hours and 30, 000 miles cross country. *Having been involved
in soaring off and on for over fifty years, I have also flown gliders
with spans of 15 to 19 meters about the same amount of time and miles.

There some pretty neat things about short wing gliders. *They tend to
be lighter and easier to rig than larger gliders. *This is nice for
older flyers and their older helpers. Just picking up the tail of many
of our 30 year gliders to put on a tail dolly can result in a hernia
for a 63 year old flyer. Moving the lighter gliders around on the
ground is easier. *For example getting a PW-5 or Sparrow Hawk off of a
busy GA airport runway is a snap. *Experienced Sparrow Hawk pilots one
man rig without a *800 dollar one man rigger.

Short wings increase the number of safe land out places. *I have
landed the short wings in about ten places that would have totaled a
15 or 18 meter glider. *The lower landing energy and speed of a
lighter glider is also a plus.

To me all gliders are pretty slow moving. *The sensations in small or
large gliders are about the same, the main difference is the speed on
the score sheet. *We all seem to try to return to our starting place
at the end of the day anyway.

I left soaring in 1978. *I had a Standard Libelle which I loved but
was not (in my mind) competitive. *I decided to do something different
and started racing sail boats. *I noticed that the less expensive and
smaller the boat the more fun and comradship in the fleet. *I do not
know why that is the case, but that is my opinion. *In soaring the
last ten years, it seems to me that the people really having the most
fun are the 1-26 ers.

I do not see that continuing to have a place for short wing gliders to
race and set records really takes anything away from any other class.
I think it is especialy neat that the class is being opened up gliders
other than the PW-5. *There are seveal really neat gliders that will
be able to fly in the 13.5 meter class. *Think of all the time,
effort, and money that has been spent designing and building these
gliders.

If you have not tried it, don't ____ *_____ __.

Bill Snead
6W

Bill:

Your points are well taken, and my comments were not one of the usual
anti-PW5 rants on r.a.s.

The main point is that your PW5 -- or any other light weight, easy to
fly, easy to rig and inexepensive glider -- will not last long in 13.5
meter class. You will not have a place to race the glider you like so
much, or any other like it.

The PW5 is already not the highest performing 13.5 meter glider. And
the minute anyone produces a modern 13.5 meter glider whose design is
optimized for performance, you're really toast. That's true whether or
not they allow ballast. An optimized no-ballast glider with a modern
wing, aerodynamic fuselage, and high wingloading will easily
outperform the PW5.

The outcome of this class is inevitable.There will be one worlds with
a mix of gliders. In the next one, only the highest performing
existing glider will show up. (russia? sparrowhawk? silent? I haven't
kept up.) and all the others will again have no place to race.

The minute a new glider is designed for world level competition in
this class, retire all of the above from racing. The new glider will
look like a scaled down ASW27. (Or maybe a scaled up version of those
monster RC models we've seen on r.a.s. lately). It will cost nearly as
much too. It will be relatively useless as an easy to fly, assemble,
etc. club glider.

We've been through all this before. The IGC split standard class in
two, so that existing flapped (Pik 20) and unflapped (Standard cirrus)
gliders would each have a home. In 3 years new gliders came out
(Discus, ventus, 19,20) optimized to each classes' rules, and those
existing gliders were all obsolete. Until club came along.

So where are you going to race a PW5 in a few years? You'll be toast
in 13.5 meter class. The club class is growing and they won't let you
in. Sports class is either going to die out, or become a ridiculous
class combining only PW5 and Nimbus 4. And that's only in the US.
There is no sports in the rest of the world.

The only answer to keep YOU racing in YOUR PW5 is a handicapped class
for lower performance gliders. I would think you'd be leading the
charge.

John Cochrane

I have to agree with John, the 13.5m class only makes sense as a
handicapped class.

Going through the history of the decision in the IGC, if my memory
serves me right, a number of things took place:

The initial push was for a new ultralight class. This plea was then
conveniently mixed with the problem of what to do with the failed
World Class. When the vote was brought forth for the creation of the
13.5m class, the question of allowing handicaps or not was tagged onto
the decision with the recommending group suggesting that handicaps
should apply. However, there was discussion on whether this would
stifle innovation and in the end the argument for innovation and no-
handicaps won the day. It is very possible to speculate that the IGC
was not ready for the particulars of this and that proper reflection
on the issues did not take place.

To start with, the 13.5m class has its origins in the need to further
the development of the sport. Here were all these people flying
ultralight gliders in various nations and what the IGC rightly felt
was the need to give these people a competitive home and encourage
them to develop their numbers rather than see them drift towards other
air sports.

The benefits of an ultralight glider are that it costs less and in
most cases can be fairly light and easy to operate. Of course when it
is light and easy to operate it is not high performance.

While the argument for innovation is good, in this situation it means
that the person who wants to win this class will develop a
specialized, exotic material, high-wing-loading glider, which will
neither be cheaper than current high-performance gliders, nor will it
be simple to operate. Visions of finding the perfect recipe and then
making thousands of these, therefore bringing down the price can be
discounted -- we already have the World Class experience.

So what will happen is that we will end up with this highly
specialized expensive machine that will turn up at the comps and we
can forget the people in these cheap convenient machines we made the
class for in the first place.

And in the end, do we really want innovation in the 13.5m class? For
the past years we have seen absolutely no innovation in standard
class. The Diana is so good that some people prefer to ban it rather
than develop a new glider to beat it. Where we see innovation is the
very active18 meter and of course open class. If we want innovation in
the shorter wingspan classes, why not develop a special class for 15
or 18 meter boundary layer suction wings and see short wingspans fly
with the performance of open class or better?

So the main question I feel we must address is this: can we look at
the decision to take out the handicaps in new light and see if we can
revisit it? The IGC has to seriously consider this before it goes down
the path of creating another failed class.

Alexander Georgas