ASW20 or LS6

At 21:39 01 February 2011, wrote:


I'm gonna be the grizzled old instructor that is going to suggest you
need to go very carefully.
I expect the folks I supervise to get at least 50 hrs in a 1-34(that's
what we have) before moving on to glass
of the type described. At the very least a good bit of time in some
intermediate ship.
These ships fly very nicely but they are heavier, twice as slippery,
all are tailwheel aircraft, virtually all have CG
hooks being aero towed, and all require very good stall- spin skills
compared to a 2-33 primary trainer.
To do this safely, you need a couple ships in between and a good
coach.
Good luck and take care
UH

Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or Grob103, both could be described as fairly slippery compared to
the old wood and metal. Many other organisations accept that if you set
the level of training correctly, and train a person to fly the type he is
destined to fly then there should be no problem. Same applies to flaps,
there is no real difficulty there provided the right training is given.
I have long had issues with instructors who insist that people fly low
performance gliders before getting in the hot ships. If you set out to do
the proper training there is no reason to do that.
I too am a grizzled old instructor, been instructing for 46 years and in
the beginning all there was was wood or metal. That is no reason to force
those that have followed me to fly low performance first, I hope my
teaching is better than that.

On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 23:44:05 +0000, Don Johnstone wrote:

Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or Grob103, both could be described as fairly slippery compared to
the old wood and metal.

I agree with what you're saying, but question whether it is relevant to
the OP. He only has time in a 2-33 so far with the intention of
transitioning to 1-36 later this year after a little more 2-33 time and
then, when he's comfortable in the 1-36, moving onto flapped glass.

In UK terms that is pretty close to moving from a T.21b to an ASW-20 or
LS-6 via an SZD-30 Pirat: the 1-36 flies with similar speeds and glide
ratio to the Pirat but is probably draggier since it is lighter than a
Pirat (215kg vs 260 kg empty).

Disclaimer: I've only flown a 2-33 and a T.21b. I haven't flown a 1-36 or
a Pirat. All the above comparisons were made using numbers from the
Sailplane Directory.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Don Johnstone wrote:


Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or ....

OK so I'll chip in some experience. Grizzled yes, instructor for the
last 5 or so years...

The experience is still new enough to remember the embarrassment when I
wanted to transition to the Std Cirrus I had purchased. Having learned
exclusively, and flown exclusively in wood , tube + rag (Bergfalke 2-55
if you must know) I found I had spent too much time in really draggy,
slow low performance ships. Result is that I took quite a few flights to
get my speed under control in something as forgiving as a Grob 103.

Lesson learned is that it is far better to learn on something a little
higher performance - but if you are solo in such a low performance old
lady - you will need some transition training.

What worked for me was about 10 launches in a Grob103 with an instructor
in the back. flying in different conditions and locations to get the
feel of the faster everything (accelleration, stall, pitch response) and
vastly better glide angle (hint - it is impossible to make a good
landing when you arrive over the threshold with full brakes and fifty
feet of clear air under your wheel...) Unfortunately in a draggy old
ship it is all too easy to develop bad habits. The sooner you fly higher
performance the easier I would assume to change them.

My first launch in the Cirrus was perfectly safe and I had less than 50
hours total time at that point. I made sure it was on a field I knew
well, in calm conditions - try to stack the risk factors in your favour
and fly the glider.

Now - My daughter is learning in the Grob103 and is not phased by the
performance, it is normal to her. At 10 hours her speed control is
excellent. She was disconcerted by how unresponsive the Bergie was when
I introduced her to it.

Cheers
Bruce

On 2011/02/02 1:44 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:39 01 February 2011, wrote:


I'm gonna be the grizzled old instructor that is going to suggest you
need to go very carefully.
I expect the folks I supervise to get at least 50 hrs in a 1-34(that's
what we have) before moving on to glass
of the type described. At the very least a good bit of time in some
intermediate ship.
These ships fly very nicely but they are heavier, twice as slippery,
all are tailwheel aircraft, virtually all have CG
hooks being aero towed, and all require very good stall- spin skills
compared to a 2-33 primary trainer.
To do this safely, you need a couple ships in between and a good
coach.
Good luck and take care
UH

Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or Grob103, both could be described as fairly slippery compared to
the old wood and metal. Many other organisations accept that if you set
the level of training correctly, and train a person to fly the type he is
destined to fly then there should be no problem. Same applies to flaps,
there is no real difficulty there provided the right training is given.
I have long had issues with instructors who insist that people fly low
performance gliders before getting in the hot ships. If you set out to do
the proper training there is no reason to do that.
I too am a grizzled old instructor, been instructing for 46 years and in
the beginning all there was was wood or metal. That is no reason to force
those that have followed me to fly low performance first, I hope my
teaching is better than that.


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

I couldn't agree more that it's vital to get glass time. I learned to
fly in a 2-33 an was transitioned to a "hot" 1-26. After flying that
for about 80 hours I moved to another area found a new spot to fly. I
went up with an instructor in a G103. Speed control (and coordination)
were big issues. I remember going into the turn from base to final at
about 58 kts and coming out at 68+ kts ... too high and too fast. the
runway comes up quickly at that speed and with the instructor
"yelling" in the back things were happeing much faster than I was used
to. It took a bunch of flights to understand the energy that is
gererated by a slippery ship. After that the transition into a 102 was
easy. That was 30 years ago and I haven't been in a 2-33 since...

glider12321 wrote:
I couldn't agree more that it's vital to get glass time.

Vital? Maybe not. If you can handle an all metal B-4, then glass should
not present a problem. At least, it didn't for me.

Tony, LS6-b "6N"

On Feb 4, 1:33*am, BruceGreeff wrote:
Lesson learned is that it is far better to learn on something a little
higher performance - but if you are solo in such a low performance old
lady - you will need some transition training.

I'm not an instructor but I've taken dozens of friends/relatives on
their first glider flight, almost all in either a Janus (original,
flying elevator), Grob Twin Astir, or DG1000, and let them try the
controls.

Pretty much everyone can at least "keep it between 50 and 60" in a
straight line right from the start, and often in a 90 degree turn too.
It does help in the Janus to put on 1 notch (6 degrees) of flap, which
makes it handle similarly to the Grob.

Everyone who has learned to fly at our club in the past several years
has done it in the DG1000 and only the DG1000. I don't think there
have been any problems except persuading them to get out of the DG and
into a PW5 for beginning cross country exploring...

At 03:05 04 February 2011, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Feb 4, 1:33=A0am, BruceGreeff wrote:
Lesson learned is that it is far better to learn on something a little
higher performance - but if you are solo in such a low performance old
lady - you will need some transition training.

I'm not an instructor but I've taken dozens of friends/relatives on
their first glider flight, almost all in either a Janus (original,
flying elevator), Grob Twin Astir, or DG1000, and let them try the
controls.

Pretty much everyone can at least "keep it between 50 and 60" in a
straight line right from the start, and often in a 90 degree turn too.
It does help in the Janus to put on 1 notch (6 degrees) of flap, which
makes it handle similarly to the Grob.

Everyone who has learned to fly at our club in the past several years
has done it in the DG1000 and only the DG1000. I don't think there
have been any problems except persuading them to get out of the DG and
into a PW5 for beginning cross country exploring...

I haven't read all 42 postings so perhaps someone has already said this,
but my understanding is that the 20 is very reluctant to spin, except in
landing configuration, ie flaps and wheel down. However in 4 years of
flying one, nearly always at 16.6 meters, it never once attempted an
inadvertant spin entry.
Dave

On 2/4/2011 8:04 AM, David Salmon wrote:


I haven't read all 42 postings so perhaps someone has already said this,
but my understanding is that the 20 is very reluctant to spin, except in
landing configuration, ie flaps and wheel down. However in 4 years of
flying one, nearly always at 16.6 meters, it never once attempted an
inadvertant spin entry.

My understanding and experience with my ASW 20C is it is very spin
resistant in the landing configuration, i.e., LANDING flaps selected and
wheel down. That's because the ailerons move up to a negative position,
giving the wing a lot of wash-out.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:04:31 +0000, David Salmon wrote:

I haven't read all 42 postings so perhaps someone has already said this,
but my understanding is that the 20 is very reluctant to spin, except in
landing configuration, ie flaps and wheel down.

Look at what Andras Maurer has to say - he thinks '20 are very sensitive
to small changes in wing profile to the extent that almost every '20 has
different handling. Mine would sometimes spin without warning while
thermalling at 45 kts in a 40-45 degree bank and zero flap (did it twice)
but this was probably related to micro-turbulence in the thermal since I
was unable to reproduce that departure in still air later in the day, and
usually it was perfectly happy to thermal at that airspeed and bank
angle. OTOH mine was a perfect lady in zero and thermal flap at speeds
where others have said their '20 would certainly have spun.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |