ASW20 or LS6

On 2/5/2011 2:10 PM, David Smith wrote:
The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and
flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is not
tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it will
bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is biased
to a climb profile.
Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise
biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK but
the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price. As a
15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be included
in this discussion.

The LS6 is same vintage as the ASW 20B/C, at least a generation behind
the ASW 27. The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27.
This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not find
the LS6 to be superior in contests.

If you can afford an ASW 27, I strongly recommend it over the ASW 20 and
the LS6. It has a far more crash resistant cockpit, all self-connecting
controls, landing flaps, airbrakes that won't suck out, a disc brake on
the main wheel, and wonderful performance. It makes the LS6 and ASW 20
seem very old fashioned.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.
The higher price you will pay for an LS6 reflects the greater desirability
and the later 18m version is the most desirable of all. It stayed in
production until 2003, but in later years the factory was making mostly
LS8s, another desirable glider that will not be cheap.
In todays market recreational pilots want 18m span and an engine if
possible but an 18m LS6 will cost more than a Ventus C turbo of similar
age. However, lets not get into a discussion on the merits or demerits of
engines in gliders.

David

At 02:41 06 February 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 2/5/2011 2:10 PM, David Smith wrote:
The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and
flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is
not
tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it
will
bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is
biased
to a climb profile.
Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise
biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK
but
the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price.
As
a
15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be
included
in this discussion.

The LS6 is same vintage as the ASW 20B/C, at least a generation behind
the ASW 27. The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27.

This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not find
the LS6 to be superior in contests.

If you can afford an ASW 27, I strongly recommend it over the ASW 20 and

the LS6. It has a far more crash resistant cockpit, all self-connecting
controls, landing flaps, airbrakes that won't suck out, a disc brake on

the main wheel, and wonderful performance. It makes the LS6 and ASW 20
seem very old fashioned.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:
Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.

I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying
against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6
and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is
noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6
with the 27, but put it with the 20.

The higher price you will pay for an LS6 reflects the greater desirability

Oddly, that did not translate into sales, with the ASW20 variants
selling over 1,000, and LS6 variants at about 375 (wikipedia figure). If
the LS6 does command a higher price, perhaps it is the shortage of
gliders available, and not the desirability that accounts for it.

I'm not suggesting the L6 is in any way inferior to the ASW20, just that
it is not superior, and definitely not in the ASW 27 class.

and the later 18m version is the most desirable of all. It stayed in
production until 2003, but in later years the factory was making mostly
LS8s, another desirable glider that will not be cheap.

I'm pretty sure the OP was not looking for 18 meter span gliders, which
is a very different discussion, and excludes the 20 he was asking about.

In todays market recreational pilots want 18m span and an engine if
possible but an 18m LS6 will cost more than a Ventus C turbo of similar
age. However, lets not get into a discussion on the merits or demerits of
engines in gliders.

Why not? In another thread, of course. I love that discussion! "A Guide
to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to
know http://tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Feb 6, 1:39*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.

I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying
against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6
and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is
noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6
with the 27, but put it with the 20.

You're both right. Except that to suggest that any given glider did
the winning is just silly. The nut on the stick does that, always.
What he wins *in* is generally "the ship du jour", which is as much a
feature of fad and fashion as anything else.

Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do
for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was
a real aerodynamic dog.

Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in
15m. Ask UH, it goes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Feb 6, 3:11*pm, T8 wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:39*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.

I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying
against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6
and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is
noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6
with the 27, but put it with the 20.

You're both right. *Except that to suggest that any given glider did
the winning is just silly. *The nut on the stick does that, always.
What he wins *in* is generally "the ship du jour", which is as much a
feature of fad and fashion as anything else.

Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do
for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was
a real aerodynamic dog.

Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in
15m. *Ask UH, it goes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes I too would be interested in what improvements are made with the
added winglets. One of the 20B's I am considering has the aftermarket
winglets added..still 15m ship after winglets were added.

On Feb 6, 10:34*pm, binks wrote:

Yes I too would be interested in what improvements are made with the
added winglets. One of the 20B's I am considering has the aftermarket
winglets added..still 15m ship after winglets were added.

The only thing you'll notice unless you are racing "Nascar style"
close is an improvement in handling and stall/spin behavior. We're
talking about an improvement as measured in average cross country
speed of about 2%. Flying for fun, that 2% is pretty meaningless.
But in a 15m contest, the difference between a factory original 20B
and a 27 is about 3% (at least the CH handicap for sports says so)...
now you get the picture.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

And if you make a third generation , polyhedral outer panel and blended
winglet like Keith Ashman's A7 - you get a quite competitive 18m ship.

In strong conditions A7 has been able to pretty much match the JS1s -
and that IS saying something...
Not bad for a 20 year old design.

I don't know what could be achieved with the LS6 because I have not seen
any examples of one being modified to the same degree.

Bruce

On 2011/02/06 10:11 PM, T8 wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:39 pm, Eric wrote:
On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
SNIP

Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do
for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was
a real aerodynamic dog.

Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in
15m. Ask UH, it goes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

After the latest from D.G.you would have to be one sandwich short of a
picnic to buy a L.S..




At 14:22 07 February 2011, BruceGreeff wrote:
And if you make a third generation , polyhedral outer panel and blended
winglet like Keith Ashman's A7 - you get a quite competitive 18m ship.

In strong conditions A7 has been able to pretty much match the JS1s -
and that IS saying something...
Not bad for a 20 year old design.

I don't know what could be achieved with the LS6 because I have not seen

any examples of one being modified to the same degree.

Bruce

On 2011/02/06 10:11 PM, T8 wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:39 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world


Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do
for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was
a real aerodynamic dog.

Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in
15m. Ask UH, it goes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

On Feb 5, 8:41*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27.
This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not *find
the LS6 to be superior in contests.


My personal experience from flying and racing my 6b against ASW-20s,
ASW 27s, etc is that overall, the 6 is slightly better than the 20,
and the 27 is slightly better than the 6. And the 29 is slightly
better than the 27.

Of course, individual gliders vary enough to make up the difference -
in particular, some 27s I found easy to outrun and outclimb, while
others just plain left me in the dust.

As always, it mainly the nut holding the stick...

All are great gliders!

Kirk
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