ASW20 or LS6

On Feb 5, 9:29*am, T8 wrote:
On Feb 5, 8:16*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:31:23 -0800, Marc wrote:
I've owned a 20B, plus had several flights each in a couple of different
20s and a 20C. *The 20B and 20C both had beautiful handling, no tendency
to spin unless forced, and were well mannered in all configurations.
One 20 (low serial number, IIRC) would spin without much warning in
thermal or landing flap and always in the same direction (over the top
if I was turning the opposite way), the other would do so only in
landing flap, both seemed a bit twitchy at times. I suspect Schleicher
was still learning how to build glass gliders in a repeatable fashion
during the 20 production run, the 20B/C show the benefits of experience
(plus reduced landing flap travel)...

Curiosity: have you any idea what the serials were for those 20s?
Mine was 20034, so fairly early...

Other significant sources of variability are rigging of flaps &
ailerons, type & condition of seals... and of course now more than
half the 20 fleet flies with winglets of one sort or another, these
make a difference too (especially the odd installation with more toe
on one side than the other).

You really do need to treat these ships as individuals. *My 20B is a
pussycat in #4 and L, it's a little sharp in #3. *I fly it at 90% aft,
with winglets. *It flies straight, the spin behavior is symmetric...
but it does have a eccentric lift pin that someone installed to get it
that way.

Question for Dan: when you swapped ships with the 20B pilot, how much
different were you two in weight? *Your story could be explained
rather neatly if you were a bigger guy than your friend. *I haven't
flown a 6. *Tried to buy one, but the owner wasn't ready to sell. *I
ended up with the 20B a few weeks later, have not regretted this.
Cockpit, controls, landing flaps, landing gear and wheel brake are all
better or a lot better on the 20B. *However it's certainly true that
the 20 flies best if you keep the roll rates about 1/2 of maximum. *At
high aileron deflections, she gets a little draggy. *Not sure if I
want to fly a 6... I'm pretty happy with my ship, want to stay that
way!

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, I swapped with Tom Serkowski (5Z) and I think it was a 20B
(stiff wings rather than floppy). I'm a bit taller than Tom but I
think we're about the same weight and we both flew dry. After
landing, I asked him what he thought and he held up the index finger
of one hand and placed the palm of the other hand down on it
indicating balancing on the point of a needle. My reply to his
question was that I thought the 20 was on rails, meaning it was
difficult to roll. I'm sure that's because of the difference in
handling qualities of the two - the LS-6a being extremely light on the
controls.

Hope that answers your question.

The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and
flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is not
tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it will
bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is biased
to a climb profile.
Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise
biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK but
the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price. As a
15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be included
in this discussion.
In short if you are a switched on pilot with not many bucks you will love
the ASW 20 and accept its vices. If you value the extra refinement and can
pay double the bucks the LS6C is a damn good choice. Enjoy either for your
own pleasure and goals, neither will make you world champion,

Dave

At 17:44 05 February 2011, Marc wrote:
On Feb 5, 5:16=A0am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:31:23 -0800, Marc wrote:
I've owned a 20B, plus had several flights each in a couple of
differen=
t
20s and a 20C. =A0The 20B and 20C both had beautiful handling, no
tende=
ncy
to spin unless forced, and were well mannered in all configurations.
One 20 (low serial number, IIRC) would spin without much warning in
thermal or landing flap and always in the same direction (over the
top
if I was turning the opposite way), the other would do so only in
landing flap, both seemed a bit twitchy at times. I suspect
Schleicher
was still learning how to build glass gliders in a repeatable
fashion
during the 20 production run, the 20B/C show the benefits of
experience
(plus reduced landing flap travel)...

Curiosity: have you any idea what the serials were for those 20s?
Mine was 20034, so fairly early...

The worst of the two was in the single digits, it was destroyed
several years later in a fatal stall/spin accident with a low time
pilot at the controls. The other one I have no idea about. I'll also
mention that the most important reason I had at the time for buying a
used 20B instead of a 20 was the automatic elevator hookup, I've had
two soaring friends die as a result of disconnected elevators, and
both were far more diligent pilots than I...

Marc

On Feb 5, 2:10*pm, David Smith wrote:
In short if you are a switched on pilot with not many bucks you will love
the ASW 20 and accept its vices. If you value the extra refinement and can
pay double the bucks the LS6C is a damn good choice. Enjoy either for your
own pleasure and goals, neither will make you world champion,

I'm going to faintly disagree with you here, and say that the vices
had been pretty much worked out by the time the 20B and C went into
production, I've never heard of anyone having problems with either.
The 20 is a mixed bag, some (perhaps most) are apparently fine if set
up with non-aggressive CG, others seem to have issues with stall/spin
characteristics no matter how they are set up. The higher prices
commanded by the B and C models likewise reflect that extra
refinement...

Marc

On 2/5/2011 2:10 PM, David Smith wrote:
The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and
flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is not
tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it will
bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is biased
to a climb profile.
Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise
biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK but
the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price. As a
15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be included
in this discussion.

The LS6 is same vintage as the ASW 20B/C, at least a generation behind
the ASW 27. The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27.
This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not find
the LS6 to be superior in contests.

If you can afford an ASW 27, I strongly recommend it over the ASW 20 and
the LS6. It has a far more crash resistant cockpit, all self-connecting
controls, landing flaps, airbrakes that won't suck out, a disc brake on
the main wheel, and wonderful performance. It makes the LS6 and ASW 20
seem very old fashioned.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.
The higher price you will pay for an LS6 reflects the greater desirability
and the later 18m version is the most desirable of all. It stayed in
production until 2003, but in later years the factory was making mostly
LS8s, another desirable glider that will not be cheap.
In todays market recreational pilots want 18m span and an engine if
possible but an 18m LS6 will cost more than a Ventus C turbo of similar
age. However, lets not get into a discussion on the merits or demerits of
engines in gliders.

David

At 02:41 06 February 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 2/5/2011 2:10 PM, David Smith wrote:
The ASW20 in its day was/is a racing thoroughbred, set up properly and
flown by a experienced pilot was the best glider in its era. But it is
not
tolerant of mishandling, in particular use the flaps wrongly and it
will
bite you and in common with other designs of the time the wing is
biased
to a climb profile.
Later designs used by the LS6, ASW27 and Ventus had much more cruise
biased wings and outclassed the 20. The earlier LS6 A and B were OK
but
the 18m LS6C is the gem, as is the 18m LS8 and command premium price.
As
a
15m ship the ASW27 is still at the top of the tree and should be
included
in this discussion.

The LS6 is same vintage as the ASW 20B/C, at least a generation behind
the ASW 27. The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27.

This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not find
the LS6 to be superior in contests.

If you can afford an ASW 27, I strongly recommend it over the ASW 20 and

the LS6. It has a far more crash resistant cockpit, all self-connecting
controls, landing flaps, airbrakes that won't suck out, a disc brake on

the main wheel, and wonderful performance. It makes the LS6 and ASW 20
seem very old fashioned.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:
Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.

I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying
against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6
and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is
noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6
with the 27, but put it with the 20.

The higher price you will pay for an LS6 reflects the greater desirability

Oddly, that did not translate into sales, with the ASW20 variants
selling over 1,000, and LS6 variants at about 375 (wikipedia figure). If
the LS6 does command a higher price, perhaps it is the shortage of
gliders available, and not the desirability that accounts for it.

I'm not suggesting the L6 is in any way inferior to the ASW20, just that
it is not superior, and definitely not in the ASW 27 class.

and the later 18m version is the most desirable of all. It stayed in
production until 2003, but in later years the factory was making mostly
LS8s, another desirable glider that will not be cheap.

I'm pretty sure the OP was not looking for 18 meter span gliders, which
is a very different discussion, and excludes the 20 he was asking about.

In todays market recreational pilots want 18m span and an engine if
possible but an 18m LS6 will cost more than a Ventus C turbo of similar
age. However, lets not get into a discussion on the merits or demerits of
engines in gliders.

Why not? In another thread, of course. I love that discussion! "A Guide
to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to
know http://tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Feb 6, 1:39*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.

I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying
against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6
and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is
noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6
with the 27, but put it with the 20.

You're both right. Except that to suggest that any given glider did
the winning is just silly. The nut on the stick does that, always.
What he wins *in* is generally "the ship du jour", which is as much a
feature of fad and fashion as anything else.

Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do
for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was
a real aerodynamic dog.

Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in
15m. Ask UH, it goes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Feb 6, 3:11*pm, T8 wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:39*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 2/6/2011 9:54 AM, David Smith wrote:

Memories are funny things Eric, you forgot the LS6 won 4 world
championships, in 85, 87, 91 and 93 the ASW20 won once in 81 coming second
to a Ventus in 83 at Hobbs. But that is not to decry the 20, at 30 years
old it "IS" best bang for your bucks and still holds its value.

I didn't forget that - my remarks were personal observations from flying
against L6s recreationally and in contests, and reports from other LS6
and ASW20 owners doing the same. I have also observed the ASW27 is
noticeably superior to an ASW20, and that is why I don't lump the LS6
with the 27, but put it with the 20.

You're both right. *Except that to suggest that any given glider did
the winning is just silly. *The nut on the stick does that, always.
What he wins *in* is generally "the ship du jour", which is as much a
feature of fad and fashion as anything else.

Eric, your observations leave out what (second generation) winglets do
for the 20 -- not for the least reason that the original droop tip was
a real aerodynamic dog.

Modern tweaks on the 20B render a surprisingly competitive glider in
15m. *Ask UH, it goes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes I too would be interested in what improvements are made with the
added winglets. One of the 20B's I am considering has the aftermarket
winglets added..still 15m ship after winglets were added.

On Feb 6, 10:34*pm, binks wrote:

Yes I too would be interested in what improvements are made with the
added winglets. One of the 20B's I am considering has the aftermarket
winglets added..still 15m ship after winglets were added.

The only thing you'll notice unless you are racing "Nascar style"
close is an improvement in handling and stall/spin behavior. We're
talking about an improvement as measured in average cross country
speed of about 2%. Flying for fun, that 2% is pretty meaningless.
But in a 15m contest, the difference between a factory original 20B
and a 27 is about 3% (at least the CH handicap for sports says so)...
now you get the picture.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Feb 5, 8:41*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
The :S6 a fine glider, but it is not a match for the ASW 27.
This pilot, and the other ASW 20 (and B/C) pilots I know, did not *find
the LS6 to be superior in contests.


My personal experience from flying and racing my 6b against ASW-20s,
ASW 27s, etc is that overall, the 6 is slightly better than the 20,
and the 27 is slightly better than the 6. And the 29 is slightly
better than the 27.

Of course, individual gliders vary enough to make up the difference -
in particular, some 27s I found easy to outrun and outclimb, while
others just plain left me in the dust.

As always, it mainly the nut holding the stick...

All are great gliders!

Kirk
66