Plane for Short Field, Grass Strip, Beginner?

brian whatcott writes:

The C-150 would work for you, except that annuals are getting pricey,
and parts are going up. My last annual came in at 2 grand, and the
plane was in quite respectable shape before hand.
It would be better to buy a new plane, but that's not gonna happen
on your budget. Perhaps if you could find a sympathetic A&P
thereabouts, you could make it work out...

Annual inspection prices are a factor but they are highly variable and
rather controllable. First, one can buy a decent used aircraft that
doesn't need a lot of repairs. Second, one can do a lot of work under
the supervision of the IA and that saves a lot of money. It's OK if
you're not a wrench-head, but you must be willing to learn and find an
IA who is willing to work with you.

Given it's a short grass strip, my first choice would not be a tricycle
gear. What's on either end of the strip: empty fields? Crops? 150' oak
trees? Any obstacles to overcome will be an important factor in the
choice of aircraft. You may need something with a good climb rate and
the C-150 doesn't leap to mind with that consideration. Maybe a Texas
Taildragger (a C-150 converted to taildragger, often with a more
powerful engine). Don't know what the prices are.

Another idea is to continue renting and buy a simple kit-build
(e.g. Kitfox) and start on that. In 1 to 3 years you could have a new,
much better performing plane for about the price of a used, 50-year-old
certificated plane. And you can then legally do all your own
maintenance, adding non-certificated gadgets like autopilots, glass
panels, etc. are up to 1/4 the price of the certificated equivalents.
--
Almost all absurdity of conduct arises from the imitation of those
whom we cannot resemble.
~ Samuel Johnson

First of all, thanks for the replies.

As further information on my proposed field. It would have two strips, one about 15/33, 1,200 feet or a little more with short fences at either end. The other would be about a 3/21, same length with 100' tall trees on the South end. The prevailing winds would make the 21 the most common, meaning taking off over the trees.

I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop. It is for sale near by and I should get a demo flight as soon as the weather cooperates.

Thanks for any further comments and advice.

MBDiagMan writes:

I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop.
Excellent. That should do the job on takeoff and climb out. I forget,
does that have flaps? Is some small amount of flaps recommended for
soft-field takeoff?

Check its ability to slip (for landing), as well as any restrictions on
slipping with flaps.

--
What is either a picture or a novel that is not character?
- Henry James

Originally Posted by Bug Dout

MBDiagMan writes:

I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop.
Excellent. That should do the job on takeoff and climb out. I forget,
does that have flaps? Is some small amount of flaps recommended for
soft-field takeoff?

Check its ability to slip (for landing), as well as any restrictions on
slipping with flaps.

--
What is either a picture or a novel that is not character?
- Henry James

Thanks Bug, that is some great information to have and good questions about the plane.

I do know that the C120's had no flaps while the C140 and C140A did. I have read that the 140 flaps are only marginally effective and the 140A flaps are only slightly more effective than that.

Investigating it's slipping capabilities is something I had not thought about, so thanks for pointing this out. I will also investigate flap usage for soft field take off.

I will be able to go fly it next week if we get the weather for it.

Thanks again,

OKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.....

Check out the Cherokees...

Parts cheaper than Cessnas, and slipping with full flaps (no
restrictions) will bring it down like a cinder block safely.

Find one with Art Mattisons gap seals and VG's and the short runway
would be no issue.. (or add them later... easy.....)

We have these mods on our Warrior, and the low speed, takeoff/landing
performance is stunning....

Plus, two more seats and FAR more comfortable (and suitable) for cross
country flights..

Late 60's and early 70's 140's with a mid time engine/ light panels
should be on $$$ reach..

Good Luck!

Dave








On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:19:42 +0000, MBDiagMan
wrote:


Bug Dout;765065 Wrote:
MBDiagMan writes:
-
I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop.-
Excellent. That should do the job on takeoff and climb out. I forget,
does that have flaps? Is some small amount of flaps recommended for
soft-field takeoff?

Check its ability to slip (for landing), as well as any restrictions on
slipping with flaps.

--
What is either a picture or a novel that is not character?
- Henry James


Thanks Bug, that is some great information to have and good questions
about the plane.

I do know that the C120's had no flaps while the C140 and C140A did. I
have read that the 140 flaps are only marginally effective and the 140A
flaps are only slightly more effective than that.

Investigating it's slipping capabilities is something I had not thought
about, so thanks for pointing this out. I will also investigate flap
usage for soft field take off.

I will be able to go fly it next week if we get the weather for it.

Thanks again,

Originally Posted by Dave[_1_]

OKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.....

Check out the Cherokees...

Parts cheaper than Cessnas, and slipping with full flaps (no
restrictions) will bring it down like a cinder block safely.

Find one with Art Mattisons gap seals and VG's and the short runway
would be no issue.. (or add them later... easy.....)

We have these mods on our Warrior, and the low speed, takeoff/landing
performance is stunning....

Plus, two more seats and FAR more comfortable (and suitable) for cross
country flights..

Late 60's and early 70's 140's with a mid time engine/ light panels
should be on $$$ reach..

Good Luck!

Dave








On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:19:42 +0000, MBDiagMan
wrote:


Bug Dout;765065 Wrote:
MBDiagMan writes:
-
I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop.-
Excellent. That should do the job on takeoff and climb out. I forget,
does that have flaps? Is some small amount of flaps recommended for
soft-field takeoff?

Check its ability to slip (for landing), as well as any restrictions on
slipping with flaps.

--
What is either a picture or a novel that is not character?
- Henry James


Thanks Bug, that is some great information to have and good questions
about the plane.

I do know that the C120's had no flaps while the C140 and C140A did. I
have read that the 140 flaps are only marginally effective and the 140A
flaps are only slightly more effective than that.

Investigating it's slipping capabilities is something I had not thought
about, so thanks for pointing this out. I will also investigate flap
usage for soft field take off.

I will be able to go fly it next week if we get the weather for it.

Thanks again,

Thanks very much for the reply Dave!

I have always been a fan of the Cherokee, but several folks elsewhere have said that it wouldn't be a good choice for my proposed field. They might have said that before I realized the field will be closer to 1,300 feet than my originally estimated 1,100 feet.

That said, the forward slip is fine for getting in, but I don't think that getting in will be a problem. Getting out over those trees will be the problem. If there's an economy nose wheel, four place plane that can do it, I'm all ears.

Thanks again for all the comments.

You might find this interesting...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Od9s_VEXS8

I am the pilot, 150 hp Warrior, temp is 7 deg C. Fuel is at tabs, 70
lbs in baggage, I am alone (160 lbs)

Camera is 600 ft down the rny..

Mattisons mods (seals and VG's) and his takeoff technique...

Good luck with your search!


Cheers!

Dave




On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:18:18 +0000, MBDiagMan
wrote:


'Dave[_1_ Wrote:
;765111']OKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.....

Check out the Cherokees...

Parts cheaper than Cessnas, and slipping with full flaps (no
restrictions) will bring it down like a cinder block safely.

Find one with Art Mattisons gap seals and VG's and the short runway
would be no issue.. (or add them later... easy.....)

We have these mods on our Warrior, and the low speed, takeoff/landing
performance is stunning....

Plus, two more seats and FAR more comfortable (and suitable) for cross
country flights..

Late 60's and early 70's 140's with a mid time engine/ light panels
should be on $$$ reach..

Good Luck!

Dave








On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:19:42 +0000, MBDiagMan
wrote:
-

Bug Dout;765065 Wrote: -
MBDiagMan writes:
-
I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop.-
Excellent. That should do the job on takeoff and climb out. I forget,
does that have flaps? Is some small amount of flaps recommended for
soft-field takeoff?

Check its ability to slip (for landing), as well as any restrictions
on
slipping with flaps.

--
What is either a picture or a novel that is not character?
- Henry James-


Thanks Bug, that is some great information to have and good questions
about the plane.

I do know that the C120's had no flaps while the C140 and C140A did. I
have read that the 140 flaps are only marginally effective and the 140A
flaps are only slightly more effective than that.

Investigating it's slipping capabilities is something I had not thought
about, so thanks for pointing this out. I will also investigate flap
usage for soft field take off.

I will be able to go fly it next week if we get the weather for it.

Thanks again,-

Thanks very much for the reply Dave!

I have always been a fan of the Cherokee, but several folks elsewhere
have said that it wouldn't be a good choice for my proposed field. They
might have said that before I realized the field will be closer to 1,300
feet than my originally estimated 1,100 feet.

That said, the forward slip is fine for getting in, but I don't think
that getting in will be a problem. Getting out over those trees will be
the problem. If there's an economy nose wheel, four place plane that
can do it, I'm all ears.

Thanks again for all the comments.

On Mar 10, 10:27*am, Dave wrote:
OKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.....

Check out the Cherokees...

Parts cheaper than Cessnas, and slipping with full flaps (no
restrictions) *will bring it down like a cinder block safely.

Find one with *Art Mattisons gap seals and VG's and the short runway
would be no issue.. *(or add them later... *easy.....)

We have these mods on our Warrior, and the low speed, takeoff/landing
performance is stunning.... *

Plus, two more seats and FAR more comfortable (and suitable) for cross
country flights..

Late 60's and early 70's *140's with a mid time engine/ light panels
should be on $$$ reach..

Good Luck!

Dave

*On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:19:42 +0000, MBDiagMan

wrote:

Bug Dout;765065 Wrote:
MBDiagMan writes:
-
I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop.-
Excellent. That should do the job on takeoff and climb out. I forget,
does that have flaps? Is some small amount of flaps recommended for
soft-field takeoff?

Check its ability to slip (for landing), as well as any restrictions on
slipping with flaps.

--
What is either a picture or a novel that is not character?
- Henry James

Thanks Bug, that is some great information to have and good questions
about the plane.

I do know that the C120's had no flaps while the C140 and C140A did. *I
have read that the 140 flaps are only marginally effective and the 140A
flaps are only slightly more effective than that.

Investigating it's slipping capabilities is something I had not thought
about, so thanks for pointing this out. *I will also investigate flap
usage for soft field take off.

I will be able to go fly it next week if we get the weather for it.

Thanks again,

Neither the Cessna 150 or the Cherokee 140 are known for their short-
field performance. We used to run a couple of 150s in the school, and
on warm days the 3000' paved runway, at 3000' altitude, was getting
marginal. Grass would be way worse; the drag of grass or stubble
mustn't be underestimated. I've seen the Cherokees eat a lot of
runway, too. The best bet for a cheaper airplane for this field would
be a Champ 7EC. We had a 7EC that had been converted from the 90 hp to
100, and it outran those Cessna 150s every which way. The later
American Champion airplanes are much heavier and have less useful load
and use a LOT more runway than the old Champs.

Shoot, even an Ercoupe can make a 150 look sick. I flew a 90-hp Alon
Aircoupe, the last iteration of the Ercoupe series, and it took off
shorter, climbed faster, and cruised faster than the 150s. I have no
idea what the 150 is doing with its 100 hp.

Dan

writes:

Neither the Cessna 150 or the Cherokee 140 are known for their short-
field performance. We used to run a couple of 150s in the school, and
on warm days the 3000' paved runway, at 3000' altitude, was getting
marginal. Grass would be way worse; the drag of grass or stubble
mustn't be underestimated. I've seen the Cherokees eat a lot of
runway, too. The best bet for a cheaper airplane for this field would
be a Champ 7EC. We had a 7EC that had been converted from the 90 hp to
100, and it outran those Cessna 150s every which way. The later
American Champion airplanes are much heavier and have less useful load
and use a LOT more runway than the old Champs.

Shoot, even an Ercoupe can make a 150 look sick. I flew a 90-hp Alon
Aircoupe, the last iteration of the Ercoupe series, and it took off
shorter, climbed faster, and cruised faster than the 150s. I have no
idea what the 150 is doing with its 100 hp.

Dan

I agree. You'd have to do a lot of mods to a Cherokee 140 to be safe on
a grass field. I have an Alon Aircoupe, and it comes close in cruise and
climb to a run-out C-172. If the OP had a paved field, I'd recommend an
Alon for his needs (200-300 mile trip, ~$20K as I recall). But not from
a short grass strip. The plane he's going to look at, a 100hp C-140,
should be fine.

--
And the users exclaimed with a laugh and a taunt: "It's just what we
asked for but not what we want."

On 3/9/2011 8:03 AM, MBDiagMan wrote:
First of all, thanks for the replies.

As further information on my proposed field. It would have two strips,
one about 15/33, 1,200 feet or a little more with short fences at either
end. The other would be about a 3/21, same length with 100' tall trees
on the South end. The prevailing winds would make the 21 the most
common, meaning taking off over the trees.

I am currently looking at a C140A with 100HP and a climb prop. It is
for sale near by and I should get a demo flight as soon as the weather
cooperates.

Thanks for any further comments and advice.




C-150 rated climb at gross is 1385 ft to a 50 foot obstacle still air.
That makes your rwy 21 iffy, though the C140 has better performance.

Brian W