Russian Air Force Woes - Time to start again?

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:35:25 +0200, "Yama"
wrote:
Tasks requiring signifant technical expertise are manned by professional
soldiers in both conscript and professional armies. That situation has
not
changed a bit since WW2. This does not mean that conscripts do not have a
place in those services in supporting tasks. Even in all-pro forces, most
mechanics etc actually receive pretty minimal training in any case, so
from
skill level point it's totally irrelevant whether one is a draftee or
volunteer.

In today's US military everyone receives extensive training. Those
"mechanics" that you disparage receive significant training, as
virtually every system is high value/high tech.

A Finnish pilot who was in F-18 training in USA told that most USN (I don't
recall whether it was an USN or USMC base) mechanics receive surprisingly
little overall training, by Finnish standards. Basically they have
relatively short course during which they familiriaze with one specific
subsystem of the plane. From our point of view this is awfully wasteful
system, but I guess it suits for all-volunteer military.

That's because their requirements have changed, not because of some
fundamental change in nature of warfare. If your requirement is to defend
your nation against unwelcome tourists, a conscript army is generally
better. If your requirement is to subdue natives few thousand km's away
from
your homeland, professional force is better.

Wrong. A conscript force will be unable to operate its combat systems.

And this amazing piece of knowledge comes from...where? Funny, we were
perfectly able to operate all our equipment just fine.

A Finnish pilot who was in F-18 training in USA told that most USN (I don't
recall whether it was an USN or USMC base) mechanics receive surprisingly
little overall training, by Finnish standards.

I think the more likely scenario is that your Finnish pilot friend had very
little exposure to the vast amounts of training that USN mechanics go through -
I seriously doubt if most pilots in any air force are completely up to date on
the training aspects of a junior enlisted person's life. Its like asking a rock
star how much training his limo driver has undergone. My first year in the
Navy, as an "undesignated striker" (lowest of the low), included about a dozen
schools in everything from corrosion control ( a comprehensive course on
dissimilar metals and how to prevent/treat corrosion in a wide variety of
situations) to plane captain school ( familiarize and service every hydraulic
system, run patch tests, etc., take oil samples, process paperwork, inspect
dozens of various subsystems, etc.). Did your pilot friend go through each of
those courses..? If not, then there is no way for him to be familiar with
them, and no reason for him to even be aware that every mech in the USN goes
through them. I was only a mech for two years - in that two years, I was at
sea for 11 months, and in school 11 months. When I returned from that first
cruise, I immediately was sent into a training pipeline (15 months of
schooling) that included six more schools (from 4 weeks long, to a 14 week
course) and I would say that out of twelve years active duty, about half was
spent at sea, and at least half of the remaining time was spent in various
schools.

"Surprisingly little overall training", by any standards, doesn't match what I
saw and experienced. Something tells me that your friend simply didn't hang
out at the Line Shack or Jet Shop with the Plane Captains and Mechs enough to
be aware of the level of training they recieved.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...

A Finnish pilot who was in F-18 training in USA told that most USN (I
don't
recall whether it was an USN or USMC base) mechanics receive surprisingly
little overall training, by Finnish standards.

I think the more likely scenario is that your Finnish pilot friend had
very
little exposure to the vast amounts of training that USN mechanics go
through -
I seriously doubt if most pilots in any air force are completely up to
date on
the training aspects of a junior enlisted person's life.

My memory is fuzzy so I dug out the original article. Person in question was
not a pilot but a Finnish mechanic. Here's his exact words (my translation):
"In Finnish Air Force mechanics need a long and throught training, but in
USA much of the technical work is done by recruit with a couple of weeks
theoretic training. -Maybe that's why Americans sometimes had hard time to
grasp that we at rank of Lieutenant still actually do something to the
aircraft." Obviously I cannot personally verify how accurate his description
is.

"In Finnish Air Force mechanics need a long and throught training, but in
USA much of the technical work is done by recruit with a couple of weeks
theoretic training. -

I think the Finnish mechanic was confusing plane captains with jet mechanics -
PCs did tend to fall into the category of "welcome to the Navy, now get to
work", but actual jet engine mechanics became so after comprehensive training
on the particular aircraft propulsion system their intended squadron and
aircraft type used. The various schools that taught jet engine mechanics, such
as at NATC Memphis, had an entire field of hack aircraft to draw from, for
classroom studies. We tore down and rebuilt APUs, disassembled TF-34s and
T-58s and it wasn't theoretical studies, we were in there busting knuckles.
The author of the article was a Lt, so I believe my contention that he wouldn't
be spending much time hanging out among the junior enlisted 'mechs' remains a
valid comment - mechs in squadrons I flew in had experience levels from 2
months to 33 years and the median level of experience was probably about 3-4
years and at about the E-4 or E-5 level. Plane Captains did match the profile
he stated in his article - most are under 20, have less than 6 months of
aviation-oriented schooling, but they are not expected to complete their tasks
in a vaccuum; there was always an old hand available to assist, and a big set
of boots around to kick your butt for getting caught being stupid.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Yama" wrote

My memory is fuzzy so I dug out the original article. Person in question
was
not a pilot but a Finnish mechanic. Here's his exact words (my
translation):
"In Finnish Air Force mechanics need a long and throught training, but in
USA much of the technical work is done by recruit with a couple of weeks
theoretic training. -Maybe that's why Americans sometimes had hard time to
grasp that we at rank of Lieutenant still actually do something to the
aircraft." Obviously I cannot personally verify how accurate his
description
is.

If the LT's are fixing the jets, what are the lower level NCO's and
privates/airmen doing?

Pete

"Pete" wrote in message
...
"Yama" wrote
My memory is fuzzy so I dug out the original article. Person in question
was
not a pilot but a Finnish mechanic. Here's his exact words (my
translation):
"In Finnish Air Force mechanics need a long and throught training, but
in
USA much of the technical work is done by recruit with a couple of weeks
theoretic training. -Maybe that's why Americans sometimes had hard time
to
grasp that we at rank of Lieutenant still actually do something to the
aircraft." Obviously I cannot personally verify how accurate his
description
is.

If the LT's are fixing the jets, what are the lower level NCO's and
privates/airmen doing?

They're helping them, doing all the kind of stuff which does not require
special expertise (hauling ordnance, fueling etc).
Reportedly it was difficult to position Finnish mechanics to USN training
programs, as they were used to totally different sharing of tasks.