US Air Force buys 19 DG-1000 trainiers

On Mar 23, 8:03*am, " wrote:
There is a LOT of history regarding the amazingly wasteful procurement
and use of glider/motorglider/light aircraft resources in the USAF(A)
that JS and others have direct knowledge of. *Thus the perceived
negativity of their posts.

I am sure that everyone will agree that soaring is a fantastic
introduction to aviation for the Cadets but like most .gov entitites
many people with direct knowledge believe that they have not spent our
resources very effectively.

But heck, what's $5 million? *It's for the children.

How does getting training in a DG-1000 prepare young kids when it's
likely all they will do is sit behind a monitor and fire missiles via
a Predator!

But, I am in full agreement, if it's for the children it must be a
good thing! And that would be the children making the gliders as well
as those flying them....booooyah!

Brad

On Mar 24, 11:30*am, Brad wrote:
On Mar 23, 8:03*am, " wrote:

There is a LOT of history regarding the amazingly wasteful procurement
and use of glider/motorglider/light aircraft resources in the USAF(A)
that JS and others have direct knowledge of. *Thus the perceived
negativity of their posts.

I am sure that everyone will agree that soaring is a fantastic
introduction to aviation for the Cadets but like most .gov entitites
many people with direct knowledge believe that they have not spent our
resources very effectively.

But heck, what's $5 million? *It's for the children.

How does getting training in a DG-1000 prepare young kids when it's
likely all they will do is sit behind a monitor and fire missiles via
a Predator!

But, I am in full agreement, if it's for the children it must be a
good thing! And that would be the children making the gliders as well
as those flying them....booooyah!

Brad

For one thing, Brad, the Predator pilot doesn't target the weapons -
that's done by the sensor operator. The pilots job is the same as if
he were physically sitting in the Predator - he flies it where it's
needed and maneuvers it as required to get in a position to employ
it's weapons or support the troops on the ground. So having
experience in a DG-1000 is excellent training - it probably flies more
like a predator than anything else in the Air Force inventory.

But equally important, it's about motivation and acquiring "air sense"
early on in a pilots career - If those DG-1000 rides at the Zoo result
in an AF pilot staying in for 20 instead of bailing to the airlines,
then the price of the gliders is insignificant!

And if a skill learned in a DG-1000 later saves a B-2 or F-22, that
would be well worth it.

I'm glad to see the Academy acquire a fleet of modern gliders, and
support an active XC, contest, and acro program (something it couldn't
do when it was stuck with those nasty Schweizers!). I think it would
be cool if all the service academies had glider programs and teams
that competed.

Kirk
66
USAFA 74

On Mar 24, 11:22*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Mar 24, 11:30*am, Brad wrote:









On Mar 23, 8:03*am, " wrote:

There is a LOT of history regarding the amazingly wasteful procurement
and use of glider/motorglider/light aircraft resources in the USAF(A)
that JS and others have direct knowledge of. *Thus the perceived
negativity of their posts.

I am sure that everyone will agree that soaring is a fantastic
introduction to aviation for the Cadets but like most .gov entitites
many people with direct knowledge believe that they have not spent our
resources very effectively.

But heck, what's $5 million? *It's for the children.

How does getting training in a DG-1000 prepare young kids when it's
likely all they will do is sit behind a monitor and fire missiles via
a Predator!

But, I am in full agreement, if it's for the children it must be a
good thing! And that would be the children making the gliders as well
as those flying them....booooyah!

Brad

For one thing, Brad, the Predator pilot doesn't target the weapons -
that's done by the sensor operator. *The pilots job is the same as if
he were physically sitting in the Predator - he flies it where it's
needed and maneuvers it as required to get in a position to employ
it's weapons or support the troops on the ground. *So having
experience in a DG-1000 is excellent training - it probably flies more
like a predator than anything else in the Air Force inventory.

But equally important, it's about motivation and acquiring "air sense"
early on in a pilots career - If those DG-1000 rides at the Zoo result
in an AF pilot staying in for 20 instead of bailing to the airlines,
then the price of the gliders is insignificant!

And if a skill learned in a DG-1000 later saves a B-2 or F-22, that
would be well worth it.

I'm glad to see the Academy acquire a fleet of modern gliders, and
support an active XC, contest, and acro program (something it couldn't
do when it was stuck with those nasty Schweizers!). *I think it would
be cool if all the service academies had glider programs and teams
that competed.

Kirk
66
USAFA 74

Hear! hear!

At 17:22 24 March 2011, kirk.stant wrote:

I'm glad to see the Academy acquire a fleet of modern gliders, and
support an active XC, contest, and acro program (something it couldn't
do when it was stuck with those nasty Schweizers!).

When they had their 1-26s, they always competed. I thought it was amusing
how they noted their off-field landings in the 26s. Each one had a little
row of Holstein cow stickers below the cockpit rail, one for each
outlanding. And acro in gliders as a sport makes about as much sense as
up-hill skiing.

Jim Beckman

Hear, Hear!

At 21:48 24 March 2011, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 17:22 24 March 2011, kirk.stant wrote:

I'm glad to see the Academy acquire a fleet of modern gliders, and
support an active XC, contest, and acro program (something it couldn't
do when it was stuck with those nasty Schweizers!).

When they had their 1-26s, they always competed. I thought it was
amusing
how they noted their off-field landings in the 26s. Each one had a
little
row of Holstein cow stickers below the cockpit rail, one for each
outlanding. And acro in gliders as a sport makes about as much sense as
up-hill skiing.

Jim Beckman

Seems like a very good purchase. The DG1000 is a much more
modern design with many already produced so the faults are pretty
well known. The ASK 21 is a 30 year old design in need of an
upgrade. The GRP honeycomb fuselage is probably heavier than
several layers of glass and carbon would be and, I think, much
more expensive to repair. The wing spars are still fiberglass, not
carbon fiber and there is still a lot of wood in the wing spars and
fuselage. Tail ballast weights mount on the outside of the tail and
are for spin training but with two heavy pilots the K21 could still
use some kind of aerodynamic tail ballast to move the cg more aft.
A nose hook would be easier to hook up on the line, you have to
crawl under it to hook up for aerotow and on a hot asphalt tarmac
you can burn your knees and hand.

On Mar 24, 4:48*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:
At 17:22 24 March 2011, kirk.stant wrote:



I'm glad to see the Academy acquire a fleet of modern gliders, and
support an active XC, contest, and acro program (something it couldn't
do when it was stuck with those nasty Schweizers!).

When they had their 1-26s, they always competed. *I thought it was amusing
how they noted their off-field landings in the 26s. *Each one had a little
row of Holstein cow stickers below the cockpit rail, one for each
outlanding. *And acro in gliders as a sport makes about as much sense as
up-hill skiing.

Jim Beckman

1-26s were fine in their day - but you can't do intro rides in them,
can you? And 2-33s were (and still are) absolute junk, period. It's
great that the cadets now have modern gliders to train and compete
in. And a hell of a lot safer, by the way.

As far as acro in a glider - hmm, seems teaching acro in a glider to a
cadet who will move on to F-22s might be a good thing. Sure would
teach unusual attitudes, situation awareness, and energy management,
wouldn't it? Yeah, you can do it in a power plane, but compare the
cost of an Extra 300 to a DG-1000.

And if you have never done acro in a glider - ASK-21, Blanik 13AC,
Pilatus, Swift, etc.. you are missing a wonderful aspect of our sport
- and one that can be done on those days when there isn't any lift
around. Don't knock it if you havn't tried it!

Kirk
66

kirk.stant wrote:
As far as acro in a glider - hmm, seems teaching acro in a glider to a
cadet who will move on to F-22s might be a good thing. Sure would
teach unusual attitudes, situation awareness, and energy management,
wouldn't it? Yeah, you can do it in a power plane, but compare the
cost of an Extra 300 to a DG-1000.

Looking at the pure acro time, glider acro is about the most expensive
acro you can buy.

That said, I strongly believe that pilots who have made their first
steps in gliders have a different attitude. And cleanly rolling a DG1000
(or a ASK21, for that matter) is really difficult and teaches you an
awful lot.

On Mar 26, 2:53*am, John Smith wrote:
Looking at the pure acro time, glider acro is about the most expensive
acro you can buy.

Not if you have access to a decent ridge, or wave.

On Mar 25, 3:13*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Mar 26, 2:53*am, John Smith wrote:

Looking at the pure acro time, glider acro is about the most expensive
acro you can buy.

Not if you have access to a decent ridge, or wave.

And not if you have a good winch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlRd9-wxQI (Instruments in meters,
meters/sec)
Winch launch height was limited by airspace restrictions