Checklist formats

On Mar 27, 12:31*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy wrote:









However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.

No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.

I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
remember to get the checklist out.

Andy

Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
involved such as flying, surgery, etc. *Its a proven fact. *I probably
don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
lists. *You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
anything important in your flying career. *I wish I could say the
same.

For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
Gawande

Matt Jr.

That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
when landing a glider. Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
could be considered airmanship, not a task. In more complex gliders,
if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

I'm all for assembly checklists, and leave the house checklists, and
before leaving the glider field checklists - but gliders are simply
not complex enough to need lengthy inflight checklists. If they make
you feel better, fine, but the downside is that while you are reading
an going through a list of items, you are not flying the glider and
looking out very much - which is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT in the landing
pattern.

The example with doctors is misleading. I seriously doubt the surgeon
goes through a checklist before every action during an operation.
What he does is go through a pre-surgery checklist (like our assembly
check) and a post-surgery checklist (make sure nothing is left in the
patient), but he doesn't need a
1. grasp scalpel with right hand
2. place scalpel tip on patients skin
3. push until it bleeds
checklist!

In the complicated jets I used to fly in, our checklists were to make
sure all the required switches and checks were accomplished when
needed. And they were mainly done as "after the fact" challenge
response to verify completion - not by reading and doing one step at a
time. In a rush, the checks were done quickly and confirmed when
convenient.

Anyway, do whatever floats your boat, but don't read a checklist in
the pattern, please!

Kirk
66

On Mar 27, 12:50*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Mar 27, 12:31*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:



On Mar 26, 10:09*am, Andy wrote:

However I have never used a written checklist, or action list, for
takeoff or landing in a glider. *The check list goes away before I get
in and does not come out again until I'm back at the trailer.

No doubt people miss required actions when under pressure, but does a
checklist help in single pilot operations? *Crews of military aircraft
and of large civil transport aircraft are required to memorize the
required response for all situations requiring immediate action. *Only
after the sequence has been executed is it confirmed by use of a
checklist. *Even routine tasks such as cockpit preparation are
performed without a check list, typically using a "flow" technique.
Only when it is all done is the the checklist used for confirmation.

I'm still capable of remembering a mnemonic action list long enough to
cover a glider pre-takeoff or landing check. *When I can't remember
the list I'll probably be too old, fatigued, dehydrated, or scared to
remember to get the checklist out.

Andy

Checklists save lives in where complex, life threatening tasks are
involved such as flying, surgery, etc. *Its a proven fact. *I probably
don't need a checklist either when everything is going great. But when
my assembly is interrupted, or I have to get out of the cockpit on the
flight line for some reason, or I am landing in a field, or a whole
string of seemingly small things stack up to a situation, I want my
lists. *You are a very lucky man to have never forgotten to do
anything important in your flying career. *I wish I could say the
same.

For those interested, check out "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul
Gawande

Matt Jr.

That's all great, but there aren't a lot of life threatening tasks
when landing a glider. *Heck, in a 1-26, the only one is checking the
direction of the wind prior to entering the pattern - and even that
could be considered airmanship, not a task. *In more complex gliders,
if you forget to dump your ballast you could fly the pattern too slow,
or if you leave the gear up it could get expensive fast, but what else
is life threatening - that isn't really just flying the glider?

I'm all for assembly checklists, and leave the house checklists, and
before leaving the glider field checklists - but gliders are simply
not complex enough to need lengthy inflight checklists. *If they make
you feel better, fine, but the downside is that while you are reading
an going through a list of items, you are not flying the glider and
looking out very much - which is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT in the landing
pattern.

The example with doctors is misleading. *I seriously doubt the surgeon
goes through a checklist before every action during an operation.
What he does is go through a pre-surgery checklist (like our assembly
check) and a post-surgery checklist (make sure nothing is left in the
patient), but he doesn't need a
1. grasp scalpel with right hand
2. place scalpel tip on patients skin
3. push until it bleeds
checklist!

In the complicated jets I used to fly in, our checklists were to make
sure all the required switches and checks were accomplished when
needed. *And they were mainly done as "after the fact" challenge
response to verify completion - not by reading and doing one step at a
time. In a rush, the checks were done quickly and confirmed when
convenient.

Anyway, do whatever floats your boat, but don't read a checklist in
the pattern, please!

Kirk
66

Kirk,
Did you read:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

Kirk,
Did you read:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

Sorry, that's not a checklist, that a procedure.

And reading some of the "checklists" I see on RAS, they are also more
"procedures" instead of checklists.

WUFSTALL is getting awfully close to a procedure for me.

Kirk
66

On Mar 28, 12:17*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Kirk,
Did you read:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

Sorry, that's not a checklist, that a procedure.

And reading some of the "checklists" I see on RAS, they are also more
"procedures" instead of checklists.

WUFSTALL is getting awfully close to a procedure for me.

Kirk
66

Oh, good grief! It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? Why? You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? Drift, crab? Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: CHAOTIC. What the heck did that mean? I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: "All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: "Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)

I tend to agree with the idea that checklist should be short and apply
to only critical or commonly forgotten items.

When you add too many item and it becomes a procedure then you are
likely to miss or skip critical items on the list. Or it becomes so
long that you eventally just don't do it at all.

W ater
U ndercarriage
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
R adio Intentions
E nter Pattern

could easily be shorted to WU, Water because it can be easy to forget
and Undercarriage because it is critical and easy to forget.

My Take off critical check list is:

Canopy closed (Critical)
Controls Checked (Critical)
Flight Recorder on (easily forgotton)

It is just a sticker on instrument panel.
My assembly critical assembly check list is a sticker on the access
cover. I don't install the access cover until the check list complete.

Brian

Oh, good grief! *It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). *The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? *Why? *You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. *If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? *You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? *Drift, crab? *Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? *Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? *Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: *CHAOTIC. *What the heck did that mean? *I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: *"All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: *"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. *I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

On Mar 28, 11:56*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Oh, good grief! *It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). *The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? *Why? *You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. *If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? *You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? *Drift, crab? *Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? *Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? *Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: *CHAOTIC. *What the heck did that mean? *I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: *"All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: *"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. *I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! Did we fly together? I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

OK, hotshots,

Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.

We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.


Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
keep flying. Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
contests and it isn't the Indy 500.

DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!



At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
open
th=
em
and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
win=
d
direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
there
alone?

Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
=A0=
I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
Outboard=
"
and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! Did we fly together? I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

On 3/28/2011 8:21 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Maybe you need to meet some real glider pilots; you know, the kind that
have made mistakes. There are a lot of us - not hard to find!

Oh, good grief! It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). The control feel is
entirely different.

Yikes! After flying a ballasted glider for 4 or 5 hours, it _feels_
normal (at least for the four gliders I've owned that used water), and
if I'm concentrating on a low save or other intense things, I can forget
it. After the first time, I added it to my checklist (meaning - started
using one); so far, no repeat incidents.

Same for flaps.

Read the above, starting with the Yikes!, but thinking flaps instead of
ballast. I didn't think it was possible to forget setting the flaps, but
it was and still is.

Test the spoilers? Why? You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

If you try them early in the pattern, that can be the test. If you
sometimes wait until you are on final, that might be too late to deal
with the the problem. I've only had one spoiler incident - frozen closed
- but I've read of others having problems, including stuck open and only
one deploying. The other reason is to activate the gear warning, in case
you forgot that. I've been saved from a gear up landing at least three
times by a spoiler activated gear warning, and I'd rather have the
warning early in the pattern instead of on final.


Check the wind? You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? Drift, crab? Should you really be up there
alone?

I've never had these on my checklist, but I have learned to check the
wind several times during a pattern, after being fooled a couple times.

Check trim? Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? Should you be
flying?

I don't have this one on my checklist, but I'd say the danger is
relaxing and letting the airspeed decrease/increase unintentionally,
most likely while you are distracted by other aircraft in the pattern,
the radio, people wandering around near the runway, etc.

I could go on and on, but to what end?

(snip)

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. I know, some
day...

OK, you don't need a checklist, but I think I see why you can't imagine
that some of us find them helpful: you don't make mistakes and you don't
get distracted. I make mistakes and I do get distracted. In 36 years of
glider flying, I've managed to avoid big mistakes so a dinged wing tip
on a landing light is the extent of my damage. It's taken plenty of
care, some checklists, revision of procedures, study, and some luck to
do it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Opinions are like rear ends. Everyone has one. Check lists are good ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy and putting down the landing gear. I heard a story of a glider pilot who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him. He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill and experience dinged his wing. Perhaps a checklist on the panel with "put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.

Just my opinion

Walt