Checklist formats

Opinions are like rear ends. Everyone has one. Check lists are good ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy and putting down the landing gear. I heard a story of a glider pilot who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him. He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill and experience dinged his wing. Perhaps a checklist on the panel with "put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.

Just my opinion

Walt

On Mar 29, 5:01*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Opinions are like rear ends. *Everyone has one. *Check lists are good
ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy
and putting down the landing gear. *I heard a story of a glider pilot
who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him.
He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill
and experience dinged his wing. *Perhaps a checklist on the panel with
"put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.

Just my opinion

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

I don't think anyone on this thread was saying "checklists" are a bad
idea. The majority of the discussion has been about whether the list
needs to be written or mnemonic and what the content of the list
should be.

The extremes range between mnemonic+short, and written+long.

The key thing about any list is that it only contributes to safety if
you actually use it. I contend that a pilot is just as likely to fail
to execute a written list as a mnemonic list. I therefore contend
that a written list has no advantage over a mnemonic list unless the
list is so long it cannot be easily memorized. As others have stated
a mnemonic list does not distract from keeping eyes outside.

I also have gear warning to every glider I have owned. It went off
once in 23 years and that was as I turned downwind.

A story about airline pilots and checklists. I recently participated
in a flight test program in which we leased a modern 100 passenger
twin jet. A condition of the lease was that it would be flown by the
airline's pilots not our company test pilots. Several crews rotated
through during the test program. With only one exception during the
preflight checks the crew responded to "cockpit door" with "closed and
locked". That was interesting because the door was secured wide open
to allow instrumentation wiring to pass to the rear cabin.

Andy

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:29:21 -0700, Andy wrote:

The extremes range between mnemonic+short, and written+long.

It is possible to skewer the middle ground with written+short: our club
gliders have a piece of Dymo tape on the panel that reads CBSIFTCBE.

With only one exception during the
preflight checks the crew responded to "cockpit door" with "closed and
locked". That was interesting because the door was secured wide open to
allow instrumentation wiring to pass to the rear cabin.

:-)

Question: how easy was it for the crew to check that the door was locked,
visually or otherwise, without getting up and rattling the handle? If it
wasn't possible I'd suggest the 'cockpit door' item was dead in the water
and best removed no matter what DHS/FAA might have to say about it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

On Mar 29, 1:25*pm, Mark Jardini wrote:
Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

I tend to think it is more the result of thorough training and
constant practice, in an environment where you have to actually do
something while flying the plane all the time (instead of watching the
glass while george does the driving). And that applies to pretty much
all military flying, or professional flying like cropdusters and
medivac helos.

Interestingly, serious (XC, contest, acro) glider flying is in many
ways very similar to tactical flying in fighters - just a bit
slower.

As glider pilots, we tend to have only basic (if often excellent)
training, then it's up to us to develop and maintain currency and
advance our skills.

That takes time and dedication. And money - for those 5000' tows on
calm winter days when you go up to practice the basics even though you
have 2000 hrs in your glider. Many glider pilots just aren't willing
(or able) to do that.

Perhaps that is what leads to "checklists" that read like a page out
of a training manual - and perhaps they are necessary for many
pilots. But judging by our accident record, that approach may not be
the best...

Kirk
66

On Mar 29, 4:24*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Mar 29, 1:25*pm, Mark Jardini wrote:

Yeah, but you AF fighter jocks are not like us mere mortals. I used to
think I was a good pilot until I became a flight doc. There is a
another whole level of airmanship that most of us will never achieve.
USAF training selects the best and makes them better.

Mark Jardini ANG(ret)

(uses a checklist)

I tend to think it is more the result of thorough training and
constant practice, in an environment where you have to actually do
something while flying the plane all the time (instead of watching the
glass while george does the driving). *And that applies to pretty much
all military flying, or professional flying like cropdusters and
medivac helos.

Interestingly, serious (XC, contest, acro) glider flying is in many
ways very similar to tactical flying in fighters - just a bit
slower.

As glider pilots, we tend to have only basic (if often excellent)
training, then it's up to us to develop and maintain currency and
advance our skills.

That takes time and dedication. *And money - for those 5000' tows on
calm winter days when you go up to practice the basics even though you
have 2000 hrs in your glider. *Many glider pilots just aren't willing
(or able) to do that.

Perhaps that is what leads to "checklists" that read like a page out
of a training manual - and perhaps they are necessary for many
pilots. *But judging by our accident record, that approach may not be
the best...

Kirk
66

No offense intended, and none taken.

Andy's spot on regarding challenge and response checklists. We get so
used to making the response (whether to another crew member or to
ourselves) that, sometimes, the response is the only action taken. "I
didn't hear the tower's warning about the landing gear because there
was this loud horn blaring in my headset."

Once, as a flight engineer, I had a first officer center the gear
handle on a 727 before the gear doors had time to close. Not too much
of a problem except we were on a two-engine recovery flight (CLE-DFW)
and there was a blizzard blowing outside. Checklist said something
like Gear lever - Up and Off. He waved me to shut up as I warned
about the hanging door (again, only two engines turning) so I
unstrapped, reached over him, raised the gear handle until the doors
closed, and then centered it. The captain nodded in approval.

Remember the first officer worrying that something was wrong and the
captain saying it was OK (Air Florida, DCA)? Checklists are no
substitute for airmanship.

OK, I'm gonna go tow some gliders now...