Saturday practice at Hobbs NM

Last summer I was a co-pilot at a contest to find out what it was like
and how they did those fast flights.

What I found out;

Contest are DANGEROUS, we had 2 collisions, one Mid-Air and one on
ground, no injuries, ground one killed the Pride & Ego of the loser.
Mid-air made it home with broken wing (this looks like why our hull
insurance is so high).

Many pilots take big chances way too close to the ground, yes even a
half span at times!! Sure your very big L/D will get you to the
airport, but just touch a rock and it's over, history, body bags, etc.

Contests are an accident looking to happen;
Everyone gaggles up and Dashes for the start gate. Amazingly no
problems.
Everyone then tries to finish and land at the same time, some very,
very low! We had 3 gliders land on the same runway at the same time,
again, Amazingly no problems, just barely!

In my opinion, Glider racing is much more dangerous than car racing
and motorcycle racing that I have done in my youth.

What I did learn was the incredible concentration and dedication to
thermaling and finding thermals that the pilots do regularly. I love
XC so this is what I must learn to do better.
I also learned that for so large a group flying together they have
great Comaraderie and discipline

I have flown with Flarm in Europe and think it's great, but in the
contest enviroment I believe many will ignore it or not react to its
warning properly, as in Hope the other pilot avoids you instead of you
avoiding him.

Just my 2c worth,

Jay

On 6/21/2011 2:00 PM, Free Flight 107 wrote:
Last summer I was a co-pilot at a contest to find out what it was like
and how they did those fast flights.

What I found out;

Contest are DANGEROUS, we had 2 collisions, one Mid-Air and one on
ground, no injuries, ground one killed the Pride& Ego of the loser.
Mid-air made it home with broken wing (this looks like why our hull
insurance is so high).

Many pilots take big chances way too close to the ground, yes even a
half span at times!! Sure your very big L/D will get you to the
airport, but just touch a rock and it's over, history, body bags, etc.

Contests are an accident looking to happen;
Everyone gaggles up and Dashes for the start gate. Amazingly no
problems.
Everyone then tries to finish and land at the same time, some very,
very low! We had 3 gliders land on the same runway at the same time,
again, Amazingly no problems, just barely!

In my opinion, Glider racing is much more dangerous than car racing
and motorcycle racing that I have done in my youth.

What I did learn was the incredible concentration and dedication to
thermaling and finding thermals that the pilots do regularly. I love
XC so this is what I must learn to do better.
I also learned that for so large a group flying together they have
great Comaraderie and discipline

I have flown with Flarm in Europe and think it's great, but in the
contest enviroment I believe many will ignore it or not react to its
warning properly, as in Hope the other pilot avoids you instead of you
avoiding him.

Just my 2c worth,

Jay

The reality is that FLARM, ADS-B, or any other GPS based technology is
useless in collision avoidance at close quarters. At the very best, the
position accuracy is only 50 ft and is only updated once a second.
Flying at 50 knots, you are traveling ~70 ft / second, so a lot can
happen between updates.

These systems are great in warning you about aircraft in your area that
you might otherwise not be aware of, and to give you an overview of how
many aircraft are in a particular gaggle and their relative altitudes,
but you absolutely can't rely on them for collision avoidance in a thermal.

Makes you wonder how many of these accidents are a result of
overconfidence instilled in pilots who don't understand the limits of
the technology?

--
Mike Schumann

On 6/21/2011 1:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:


The reality is that FLARM, ADS-B, or any other GPS based technology is
useless in collision avoidance at close quarters. At the very best, the
position accuracy is only 50 ft and is only updated once a second.
Flying at 50 knots, you are traveling ~70 ft / second, so a lot can
happen between updates.

These systems are great in warning you about aircraft in your area that
you might otherwise not be aware of, and to give you an overview of how
many aircraft are in a particular gaggle and their relative altitudes,
but you absolutely can't rely on them for collision avoidance in a thermal.

Is this conclusion based, at least in part, on your personal use of
FLARM in several contests?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

I cannot agree that “FLARM, ADS-B, or any other GPS based technology
is useless in collision avoidance at close quarters”. It/they are not
panaceas that will always avert collisions, but it/they are much
better than not having them.

I nearly had a head-on collision that I believe Flarm helped avert.
Two closer gliders at say 1 and 2 o’clock momentarily distracted me
from a third, just behind, in my 12 o’clock. His and my Flarms went
off, and he was already turning to avoid me by the time I picked him
up.

If somebody approaches you from behind, you CANNOT see them. If Flarm
alerts, you as well as the other now have the chance to do something
about it – e.g. dive to accelerate away when you get say 6 seconds
warning of a probably collision from behind. If the pilot behind was
misjudging the proximity, or has his head down, that becomes your only
chance. The pilot in front of the two, in a collision I referenced
above, certainly wished that both their Flarms had been working. The
Flarm company analysis of their logger traces showed exactly how much
notice they would have had.

Chris N.

On 6/21/2011 7:15 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 6/21/2011 1:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:


The reality is that FLARM, ADS-B, or any other GPS based technology is
useless in collision avoidance at close quarters. At the very best, the
position accuracy is only 50 ft and is only updated once a second.
Flying at 50 knots, you are traveling ~70 ft / second, so a lot can
happen between updates.

These systems are great in warning you about aircraft in your area that
you might otherwise not be aware of, and to give you an overview of how
many aircraft are in a particular gaggle and their relative altitudes,
but you absolutely can't rely on them for collision avoidance in a
thermal.

Is this conclusion based, at least in part, on your personal use of
FLARM in several contests?


I have not flown with FLARM, nor do I fly in contests. I did not mean
to imply that FLARM is not helpful in alerting you to targets that you
might not have otherwise seen. My point is that you can not rely on
FLARM at close quarters in lieu of keeping a good lookout and making
sure that you always keep in visual contact with any other gliders that
are close to you.

--
Mike Schumann

On 6/21/2011 8:20 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On 6/21/2011 7:15 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 6/21/2011 1:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:


The reality is that FLARM, ADS-B, or any other GPS based technology is
useless in collision avoidance at close quarters. At the very best, the
position accuracy is only 50 ft and is only updated once a second.
Flying at 50 knots, you are traveling ~70 ft / second, so a lot can
happen between updates.

These systems are great in warning you about aircraft in your area that
you might otherwise not be aware of, and to give you an overview of how
many aircraft are in a particular gaggle and their relative altitudes,
but you absolutely can't rely on them for collision avoidance in a
thermal.

Is this conclusion based, at least in part, on your personal use of
FLARM in several contests?


I have not flown with FLARM, nor do I fly in contests. I did not mean to
imply that FLARM is not helpful in alerting you to targets that you
might not have otherwise seen. My point is that you can not rely on
FLARM at close quarters in lieu of keeping a good lookout and making
sure that you always keep in visual contact with any other gliders that
are close to you.

I don't recall anyone suggesting you use only FLARM in that situation.
You said originally that it was useless in that situation, which seems
like too strong a statement if you don't have experience with FLARM. So,
have you modified your assertion, or am I missing some nuance?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On 6/21/2011 11:49 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 6/21/2011 8:20 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On 6/21/2011 7:15 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 6/21/2011 1:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:


The reality is that FLARM, ADS-B, or any other GPS based technology is
useless in collision avoidance at close quarters. At the very best, the
position accuracy is only 50 ft and is only updated once a second.
Flying at 50 knots, you are traveling ~70 ft / second, so a lot can
happen between updates.

These systems are great in warning you about aircraft in your area that
you might otherwise not be aware of, and to give you an overview of how
many aircraft are in a particular gaggle and their relative altitudes,
but you absolutely can't rely on them for collision avoidance in a
thermal.

Is this conclusion based, at least in part, on your personal use of
FLARM in several contests?


I have not flown with FLARM, nor do I fly in contests. I did not mean to
imply that FLARM is not helpful in alerting you to targets that you
might not have otherwise seen. My point is that you can not rely on
FLARM at close quarters in lieu of keeping a good lookout and making
sure that you always keep in visual contact with any other gliders that
are close to you.

I don't recall anyone suggesting you use only FLARM in that situation.
You said originally that it was useless in that situation, which seems
like too strong a statement if you don't have experience with FLARM. So,
have you modified your assertion, or am I missing some nuance?


Useless was probably not the right word. This technology is obviously
very useful for identifying and warning a pilot about all equipped
aircraft that are potentially a threat. However, this technology does
not have the accuracy or update frequency to function as a reliable
collision avoidance system for aircraft that are operating at close
quarters.

--
Mike Schumann

I have flown with Flarm but do not yet have it fitted to my own glider
which I use in Nationals competition.

When flying XC in a Duo last year I nearly had a head on despite both
gliders being equipped with Flarm. I did not see the threat until too
late and I do not believe the other piot saw me as he took no avoiding
action. How can this be?

We were both flying at cruising speeds (closing at over 160kts) and
intercepted a short energy line from an angle of about 30 degrees. I
turned left onto the energy, he also turned left onto it but from the
other end. As I turned left the Flarm indicated a threat just left of
centre and below. Naturally I looked in that direction. This was my
mistake. The Flarm did not warn again and when I did see the threat it
was coming from my right. We had been flying towards each other with a
little lateral seperation and about 100ft vertically. He had now
turned right back onto track. My guess is that he was originally
warned that I was on his left as well and that was the way he was
looking. If this was the case he may have assumed that turning right
was OK.

This may be an isolated case but it says to me "If you fit Flarm keep
looking out and don't only look where it tells you to!".

I haven't flown in competition with Flarm but my experience includes
sharing thermals with up to 30 other gliders at a time - sometimes in
multiple cores with different bank angles and circle diameters. The
only way to avoid a collision is to look out all the time and fly
defensively. Flarm would only be a distraction in these circumstances.

I am afraid I am far from convinced of Flarms usefulness in either of
these cases.

Finally, in the UK Flarm is not compulsory in competition. Indeed our
rules expressly forbid exchange of data so Flarm has to be switched to
competition mode if used (and you know how to do it). I think this is
a mistake. If pilots were able to use the plane spotting features of
Flarm in competition it would be a definite advantage to fit it, and
all ambitious competition pilots would - including me despite my
reservations.

Jim

On Jun 21, 3:00*pm, Free Flight 107 wrote:
Last summer I was a co-pilot at a contest to find out what it was like
and how they did those fast flights.

What I found out;

Contest are DANGEROUS, we had 2 collisions, one Mid-Air and one on
ground, no injuries, ground one killed the Pride & Ego of the loser.
Mid-air made it home with broken wing (this looks like why our hull
insurance is so high).

Many pilots take big chances way too close to the ground, yes even a
half span at times!! Sure your very big L/D will get you to the
airport, but just touch a rock and it's over, history, body bags, etc.

Contests are an accident looking to happen;
Everyone gaggles up and Dashes for the start gate. Amazingly no
problems.
Everyone then tries to finish and land at the same time, some very,
very low! We had 3 gliders land on the same runway at the same time,
again, Amazingly no problems, just barely!

In my opinion, Glider racing is much more dangerous than car racing
and motorcycle racing that I have done in my youth.

What I did learn was the incredible concentration and dedication to
thermaling and finding thermals that the pilots do regularly. I love
XC so this is what I must learn to do better.
I also learned that for so large a group flying together they have
great Comaraderie and discipline

I have flown with Flarm in Europe and think it's great, but in the
contest enviroment I believe many will ignore it or not react to its
warning properly, as in Hope the other pilot avoids you instead of you
avoiding him.

Just my 2c worth,

Jay

Whatever attitudes you perceived in the flying you did certainly do
not agree with my experience in 35 years of competition.
I see almost uniformly good attitudes toward safety although we have
some that push too far and pay the price with damaged gliders.
I don't believe pilots will ignore Flarm warnings and hope for the
best.
Some of the changes made in the US have been aimed at reducing the
reward for risk taking such as low energy final glides and start
processes that tend to disperse the start gaggle.
It would be interesting to know where you observed the behavior you
describe.
UH