Air Force uniform prototype makes debut

George Shirley wrote:

--cut--
My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
--

-Gord.

Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. VBG

George, wearing his safety consultant hat again

Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
guard!!.

Seems a huge waste of manpower to me...yet it was drilled into
us...NEVER START without a fire guard!...and I did once too,
still feel a twinge of guilt...
--

-Gord.

wrote:

George Shirley wrote:

--cut--

My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
--

-Gord.

Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. VBG

George, wearing his safety consultant hat again


Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
guard!!.

Seems a huge waste of manpower to me...yet it was drilled into
us...NEVER START without a fire guard!...and I did once too,
still feel a twinge of guilt...
--

-Gord.

The problem in the American hydrocarbon processing industry is that
Nomex is required in most areas where hydrocarbons are stored,
processed, or handled. If you don't wear the stuff and someone does get
burned, OSHA is really quick on hitting you with wilfull and serious
violations. That means the company can be fined up to $70K per employee
present per violation. It's cheaper to pay the money for the
uncomfortable stuff that everyone hates than to let employees wear 13
ounce cotton.

In over 40 years in the industry I have been involved in more than one
flash fire and, in my first one, I was wearing long sleeve cotton khaki
shirt, cotton khaki trousers, cotton gloves, etc. I got first degree
burns on my face and a second degree on my right ear. The two instrument
hands with me got multiple third degree burns because they were wearing
polyester slacks and shirts. You know how proper Tiffies are.

I didn't fare any better wearing Nomex years later. Same type of burns
in the same places. The next time I went through one it burned my ass
because I was already running when it went. Didn't hurt me though, just
sped me on my way.

I used to wonder about the fire guard on starting the old prop jobs I
crewed on Gord but did it anyway. Orders is orders as they say.

George

"George Shirley" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

George Shirley wrote:

--cut--

My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
--

-Gord.

Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. VBG

George, wearing his safety consultant hat again


Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
guard!!.


I know of a crew who escaped with burns on back of head and ears only when
the aircraft exploded. They made it out and the nomex did save their back
sides. I never had a fire during start in over 4000 individual engine
starts. I don't count a few torches with J57s that were blown out
immediately. I guess the real question would be, could you give a good
answer to your commander if you did lose the jet because of a fire and you
didn't have a fire guard. But usually it is a waste of time.

MG

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...
--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" wrote
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

We had a DC-3 burn-up on start in Pleiku once. Course that was
a gasoline fire. It was full of body bags going to Saigon. What a mess.
Digging latrines was good duty that week. That was a month before
the Cathay Pacific airliner blew-up over Pleiku at 29k ft. We had
raining body parts on that deal.

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I
actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for
#4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE
cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and
generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so
basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a
fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and
a fire guard.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR wrote:

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I
actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for
#4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE
cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and
generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so
basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a
fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and
a fire guard.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Why do you start #4 & #5 first? Do they have more electrical/hydraulic capacity?

Given the age of those engines, I would want to start #1 & #8 first, in case they
blow up!

( The above includes both an honest question and a non serious smartass comment.)

Bob McKellar, who only had to start #1 on his own airplane long ago

Why do you start #4 & #5 first?

The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as
well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard
engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander
(I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?)

You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to
the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot
air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest,
you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for
#1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will
stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the
anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The
bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little
"trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the
light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere
prior to 10,000').



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

BUFDRVR wrote:

Why do you start #4 & #5 first?

The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as
well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard
engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander
(I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?)

You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to
the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot
air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest,
you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for
#1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will
stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the
anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The
bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little
"trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the
light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere
prior to 10,000').

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

So all the engines are all "plumbed" together? As long as one of the 8 is running,
you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you mentioned.)?

Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?

Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted? It would not seem to add
much to the plumbing. Is this due to the general plan of a large AFB with lots of
handy ground techs and their equipment running around?

Bob McKellar