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George Shirley wrote:
--cut-- My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now have it easy in airconditioned comfort!... -- -Gord. Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. VBG George, wearing his safety consultant hat again Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire' maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a 'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over 26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire guard!!. Seems a huge waste of manpower to me...yet it was drilled into us...NEVER START without a fire guard!...and I did once too, still feel a twinge of guilt... ![]() -- -Gord. |
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#4
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I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on start I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2 engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my opinion, over reacted to. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#5
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#6
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"Gord Beaman" wrote
(BUFDRVR) wrote: I've likely started thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on start I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2 engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my opinion, over reacted to. BUFDRVR Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the same...fireguards are a waste of time... We had a DC-3 burn-up on start in Pleiku once. Course that was a gasoline fire. It was full of body bags going to Saigon. What a mess. Digging latrines was good duty that week. That was a month before the Cathay Pacific airliner blew-up over Pleiku at 29k ft. We had raining body parts on that deal. |
#7
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Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time... I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for #4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and a fire guard. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#8
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![]() BUFDRVR wrote: Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the same...fireguards are a waste of time... I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for #4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and a fire guard. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" Why do you start #4 & #5 first? Do they have more electrical/hydraulic capacity? Given the age of those engines, I would want to start #1 & #8 first, in case they blow up! ( The above includes both an honest question and a non serious smartass comment.) Bob McKellar, who only had to start #1 on his own airplane long ago |
#9
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Why do you start #4 & #5 first?
The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander (I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?) You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest, you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for #1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little "trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere prior to 10,000'). BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#10
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![]() BUFDRVR wrote: Why do you start #4 & #5 first? The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander (I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?) You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest, you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for #1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little "trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere prior to 10,000'). BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" So all the engines are all "plumbed" together? As long as one of the 8 is running, you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you mentioned.)? Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors? Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted? It would not seem to add much to the plumbing. Is this due to the general plan of a large AFB with lots of handy ground techs and their equipment running around? Bob McKellar |
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