Change the rules for the National Guard.?

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 2/20/04 7:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message

I don't think people are exactly flocking to the Guard any more,
given the rather lengthy, and sometimes consecutive, or round-robin
deployments.

Not certain people in the Guard really expected to be used so hard.

Since when? Guard deployments have been on the upswing since ODS, with
their
assumption of first the SFOR mission and more recently KFOR. The old
days
of
units never expecting to be mobilized have been long gone, even before
the
events following 9-11. The tempo since 9-11 has probably been greater
than
many thought before, but the Guard and Reserves as a whole were much
more
cognizant of the possibility of being mobilized now than they were
twenty
years ago, when the most they could usually expect was maybe a
three-week
AT
to facilitate their participation in OCONUS training operations instead
of
the normal two weeks.

This may be so, but I certainly don't recall some of these repeat
deployments that some individuals, and Guard units are doing. At
least around here (W. Mass.). It may be a seeming bias produced
by news coverage, where individual, and especially families of
individuals are complaining of the length of the duty call, and
sometimes repeat calls. Even Ft. Campbell in Kentucky had families
of (unit??) members publicly complaining about this, and I don't
believe these were reserve or Guard.

When you are in the Guard, I think you are still entitled to put
family and job related concerns at a higher level. That's the
way it's always been and GWI or not, seems that was the prevalent
thinking, at least around here (we have a combat engineer unit
locally for Army, and a Warthog unit for the air).

When you're regular, you know you are GI, and family and you take
second row seats when Uncle has need of you.


SMH



The guard is where you go when you don't want to go to war but want
everyone to
think that you do. End of story.

You are truly a disgusting, sad sack of horse excrement. Here are a few of
the DoD's press releases regarding the deaths of deployed Guardsmen and
Reservists over just the past couple of weeks:

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/...0217-0348.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/...0217-0351.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/...0210-0339.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/...0209-0335.html

Each of these folks gave a hell of a lot more than you did, despite your
repeated crowing about your own exploits. Care to visit their next of kin
and make that claim? Open a book, read a newspaper--just get a freakin'
clue, you sanctimonious SOB. Guardsmen from a single brigade deployed from
Florida had received over forty Purple Hearts in Iraq as of November; how
many did YOU get?

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:10:18 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:



Guardsmen from a single brigade deployed from
Florida had received over forty Purple Hearts in Iraq as of November; how
many did YOU get?

Brooks


While I agree with all that you said in the snipped portion (except
for the gratuitous and scatological personal attack), I might simply
note that Purple Hearts are not a good measure of combat
effectiveness. While receipt of a PH is certainly a statement that you
were there, it doesn't mean that your contribution was particularly
effective.

I'd much rather see the regional national equivalent of the PH be
awarded to the military of the opposition.

I'm proud to say that I've got no Purple Hearts. Never particularly
aspired to one.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:10:18 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:



Guardsmen from a single brigade deployed from
Florida had received over forty Purple Hearts in Iraq as of November; how
many did YOU get?

Brooks


While I agree with all that you said in the snipped portion (except
for the gratuitous and scatological personal attack),

Merited by Art's insult to those Guardsmen now serving, and those who have
recently been KIA.

I might simply
note that Purple Hearts are not a good measure of combat
effectiveness. While receipt of a PH is certainly a statement that you
were there, it doesn't mean that your contribution was particularly
effective.

It was intended to point out that Guardsmen are indeed serving under hostile
fire and contributing their fair share of the blood.


I'd much rather see the regional national equivalent of the PH be
awarded to the military of the opposition.

I'm proud to say that I've got no Purple Hearts. Never particularly
aspired to one.

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I) made,
I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's
just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated, than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Brooks




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I) made,

Art was right on the money as to how the Guard one time was as
far as I can tell.

My father always said if he had gone into the Mass Air Guard
after retirement from the USAF, he'd have left it a General.
This would have been mid 60's through early 70's. Vietnam War
period. He regarded it merely as a "boys club" where most
effort made was sharpening your drinking skills. Correct or
not, that was his view at that time.

I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's

Everyone here plays this game to varying degree. There's a NG
hierarchy. At the bottom, are the types with no personal
military experience beyond bratdom. At the top are the combat
flyers, of which Art is one.

One group can always shut down the group below him by demanding
"what's your experience?" For Art trashing you, it might be
"How many bullets have whizzed by your head?" For you to trash
the level below you, mere ask "Tell us exactly what your military
experience might be?"

just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated, than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Well I think it does give him the right. And of course, you
have the right to correct or update him. If he doesn't take
to the correction, it's just a loss of some keystrokes.

Yeah he's a crotchety, cantankerous type. No use getting bent
out of shape over it. You're not the defender of the Guard,
called to do battle over its honor when maligned.

Quite frankly, I admire Art's no nonsense, no compromise
attitudes. Could probably exercise it in a less argumentative
way, but that's just a matter of style. As I've said before,
Art's a "time capsule" of a period of American history now
seemingly gone, where a nation was united as never before, and
accepted no mitigation of its fury toward an enemy. Todays
more mild or PC or outright revisionism doesn't go over well.

Doesn't mean he's correct in what he says all time, or even
most of the time. Keep him in context and keep your Me 109
well away from his B-26, even in todays skies!


SMH

Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 2/21/04 7:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I)
made,

Art was right on the money as to how the Guard one time was as
far as I can tell.

My father always said if he had gone into the Mass Air Guard
after retirement from the USAF, he'd have left it a General.
This would have been mid 60's through early 70's. Vietnam War
period. He regarded it merely as a "boys club" where most
effort made was sharpening your drinking skills. Correct or
not, that was his view at that time.

I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's

Everyone here plays this game to varying degree. There's a NG
hierarchy. At the bottom, are the types with no personal
military experience beyond bratdom. At the top are the combat
flyers, of which Art is one.

One group can always shut down the group below him by demanding
"what's your experience?" For Art trashing you, it might be
"How many bullets have whizzed by your head?" For you to trash
the level below you, mere ask "Tell us exactly what your military
experience might be?"

just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys
have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated, than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Well I think it does give him the right. And of course, you
have the right to correct or update him. If he doesn't take
to the correction, it's just a loss of some keystrokes.

Yeah he's a crotchety, cantankerous type. No use getting bent
out of shape over it. You're not the defender of the Guard,
called to do battle over its honor when maligned.

Quite frankly, I admire Art's no nonsense, no compromise
attitudes. Could probably exercise it in a less argumentative
way, but that's just a matter of style. As I've said before,
Art's a "time capsule" of a period of American history now
seemingly gone, where a nation was united as never before, and
accepted no mitigation of its fury toward an enemy. Todays
more mild or PC or outright revisionism doesn't go over well.

Doesn't mean he's correct in what he says all time, or even
most of the time. Keep him in context and keep your Me 109
well away from his B-26, even in todays skies!


SMH


Thanks for understanding.. I don't get much around here. But at my age I don't
give a damn. I'll say what I like whenever I like.When I was a kid I
volunteered for the Army Air Corps. Me and a million other guys. I was called
up the day I was 18 and rushed ino training as the war raged. My greatest fear
was that the war would end before I got there and I would miss the entire
thing. I had nothing to worry about. It seemed as though 15 minutes after I was
called up I was 10,000 feet over Germany, which is exaclty where I wanted to
be. I didn't join the guard. I didn't join the reserves. I wanted to go to war
so I joined the Army Air Corp. Back then the reserve and the guard were
pathetic jokes and laughing stocks for all of us. As I have said before, if you
want to go to war, then go to war and don't hand us this reserve or National
Guard stuff. Tell a member of the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what
a great job the reserve is doing to defend our country sitting in the USA
nice and safe while he may not live to see the end of this day.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

As I have said before, if you
want to go to war, then go to war and don't hand us this reserve or National
Guard stuff.

So in Art Kramer's (scarry) world, there are no National Guardsmen or
Reservists because no one would join such dishonerable organizations.
Interestingly enough, in Art Kramer's world social security and medicare are
funded four times what they are now as are several hundred other welfare
programs. Seems money is abundant in Art Kramer's world, since without a
National Guard or Reserves, active duty strength would need to be increased at
least 1 for every 4 guardsmen or reservists. You're talking about a lot of
money there.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

snip


Thanks for understanding.. I don't get much around here. But at my age I
don't
give a damn. I'll say what I like whenever I like.When I was a kid I
volunteered for the Army Air Corps. Me and a million other guys. I was
called
up the day I was 18 and rushed ino training as the war raged. My greatest
fear
was that the war would end before I got there and I would miss the entire
thing. I had nothing to worry about. It seemed as though 15 minutes after
I was
called up I was 10,000 feet over Germany, which is exaclty where I wanted
to
be. I didn't join the guard. I didn't join the reserves.

Idiot. There was NO Guard for you to join--it had already been mobilized (in
toto) before you finished high school, and depending upon the date in
question, Guardsmen were already fighting and dying. The big mobilization in
1940 ring a bell?


I wanted to go to war
so I joined the Army Air Corp. Back then the reserve and the guard were
pathetic jokes and laughing stocks for all of us.

Really? Was the 116th Infantry a "pathetic joke" at Normandy? How about the
elements of the 32nd ID in the southwest pacific campaigns? "Bloody Buna"
ring a bell?

As I have said before, if you
want to go to war, then go to war and don't hand us this reserve or
National
Guard stuff. Tell a member of the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne
what
a great job the reserve is doing to defend our country sitting in the
USA
nice and safe while he may not live to see the end of this day.

It was bad enouigh that you were completely clueless in regard to the
activities of the modern reserve components, but that you were so badly
wrong as to the Guard/Reserve during your own war is unbelievable.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Doesn't mean he's correct in what he says all time, or even
most of the time.

His tremendous lack of knowledge on *everything* (aviation, military, politics)
after 1946, and damn near half of everything prior is a more accurate
statement. Just a glance at the current thread regarding Iraq occupation has
Art's ignorance on full display. He doesn't know what's going on in Iraq now
and didn't know what was happening on the ground in Germany from 1945-1947,
although he claims he was there for 16 months following the war.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement
that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I)
made,

Art was right on the money as to how the Guard one time was as
far as I can tell.

You like blanket statements, huh? When I went into the Guard after my active
duty tour was over, there were still a few of the guys around who had joined
up during the early and mid-fities. Rememebr that during the early fifties
Guard units *were* being called up and sent to Korea. Some of them had
expereinced activation during the Berlin Crisis. They stayed in the Guard
throughout the Vietnam War. Some went full-time and manned the Nike Hercules
batteries we had in our state. They were joined sometimes by guys like my
brother, who came home from Vieetnam and went straight into the Guard. Or my
former teacher (and part-time boss), who volunteered for active duty, went
through jump school, completed the special forces qualification course,
served with the 7th SFG, and when offered an early-out (because they were
already ramping down the SF organization as Vietnam petered out), found
himself serving out the remainder of his obligated service in the Guard. But
under your definition they were all dodging the draft, right? Blanket
statements are dangerous, aren't they?


My father always said if he had gone into the Mass Air Guard
after retirement from the USAF, he'd have left it a General.
This would have been mid 60's through early 70's. Vietnam War
period. He regarded it merely as a "boys club" where most
effort made was sharpening your drinking skills. Correct or
not, that was his view at that time.

OK. Did he have any thoughts about the ANG fighter groups from Colorado,
Iowa, New mexico, etc., that got activated and sent over to Vietnam in 1968,
and of which the following has been noted:
"The Air Force commander in Vietnam, testifying before a Senate committee,
summed up the combat record of these five squadrons:

"I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five
best F-100 squadrons in the field. The aircrews were a little older, but
they were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also more
experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on the
weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't
have." "

www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/sidebar600.asp

Hell of a "drinking club", huh?



I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to
cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this
despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's

Everyone here plays this game to varying degree. There's a NG
hierarchy. At the bottom, are the types with no personal
military experience beyond bratdom. At the top are the combat
flyers, of which Art is one.

One group can always shut down the group below him by demanding
"what's your experience?" For Art trashing you, it might be
"How many bullets have whizzed by your head?" For you to trash
the level below you, mere ask "Tell us exactly what your military
experience might be?"

Excuse me, but this is a case of Art claiming *his* combat experience
somehow merits swooning and adulation from all, while the combat experience
of these Guardsmen, about fifty of whom have been *killed* during this most
recent deployment, is of no import. Big difference from the usual "mine is
bigger than yours" arguments you reference.


just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does
not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every
bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys
have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated,
than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case
of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Well I think it does give him the right. And of course, you
have the right to correct or update him. If he doesn't take
to the correction, it's just a loss of some keystrokes.

Yeah he's a crotchety, cantankerous type. No use getting bent
out of shape over it. You're not the defender of the Guard,
called to do battle over its honor when maligned.

We all should be the defender of those who are currently serving and
suffering the sacrifices.


Quite frankly, I admire Art's no nonsense, no compromise
attitudes.

My opinion of your judgement just went down correspondingly.

Could probably exercise it in a less argumentative
way, but that's just a matter of style. As I've said before,
Art's a "time capsule" of a period of American history now
seemingly gone, where a nation was united as never before, and
accepted no mitigation of its fury toward an enemy. Todays
more mild or PC or outright revisionism doesn't go over well.

If Art is a time capsule, and his opinions of inestimable worth, then what
does that say about someone like my father, another WWII bomber crew combat
vet? I relayed a couple of Art's "opinions" regarding the service of those
vets from WWII who did not fly into combat, like the ground crews, the mess
personnel, the guys stuck guarding the ammo dumps, etc., to him. He turned
eighty today, and I do believe that given half a chance he'd knock Art on
his kiester for mouthing such horsecrap. You have your "hero" in Art; I'll
stick with the rest of the guys who did their duty and have not repeatedly
asked for fawning adulation.

Brooks


Doesn't mean he's correct in what he says all time, or even
most of the time. Keep him in context and keep your Me 109
well away from his B-26, even in todays skies!


SMH