tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

On Jul 13, 7:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

I've had a rope part after the glider was airborne but before the tow
plane lifted off. Land straight ahead.
I've had an improperly connected Schweizer hook release at about 50ft
on it's own. Land straight ahead.
And as previously reported, I've had engine problems with the tow
plane and asked the glider to release at 250ft before the engine
outright failed. (It did not fail.)

T

On Jul 13, 9:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

i was towing last year when the rope broke at somewhere about 250 feet
with our 2-22 behind. The pilot made a very excellent choice of
taking the easy more or less straight ahead into the wind landing in a
dirt field just north of the airport.

On Jul 14, 2:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break 12 days ago. The glider moved about 50 ft before
coming to rest.

I've seen several similar breaks over the years.

As far as I know, our club has had precisely one rope break in the air
in the 25 years I've been a member. It happened at around 1500 or 2000
ft and the glider end or the rope and the rings dropped into an
electrical substation, which caused them to become a little unhappy.

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

On Jul 13, 10:07*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Jul 14, 2:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break 12 days ago. The glider moved about 50 ft before
coming to rest.

I've seen several similar breaks over the years.

As far as I know, our club has had precisely one rope break in the air
in the 25 years I've been a member. It happened at around 1500 or 2000
ft and the glider end or the rope and the rings dropped into an
electrical substation, which caused them to become a little unhappy.

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

Bruce, because many gliderports have shorter single runways. You may
be thinking of operating off long runways at larger airports with
cross runways.

Darryl

There are two things important here. 1. The importance of being ready to handle the rope break by practice. Like it or not, this can happen and the importance of planning cannot be overemphasized. Which direction do you turn? Can you make the 180 and then make the field? Do you land straight ahead? Which field do I go for? Do I mush it into the trees? These need to be thought of in advance. The two or three seconds you hesitate might cost you your life. 2. The importance of doing all we can to reduce the possibility of an actual rope break.

This confirms the need for the hook up person to be vigilant in the inspection of the rope AND rings prior to launch. What percentage of a 200 foot rope is inspected prior to each launch? How often do we take a good look at the rings, either the two on a Tost or the one on a Schweizer hook? I try to catch the rope as near to the tow plane as I can and let it flow across my pants and thru my fingers feeling for partial breaks, I have found two in the last two years. I have also seen rings which were beginning to crack, haven't seen one out on the flight line but have been shown them in the past. These things DO happen.

The myriad of things that can go wrong on tow such as drive brakes being open, canopy flying open, tail dolly left on and the like can be reduced or eliminated by using the checklist properly. The hook up guy can help to reduce these problems by being an extra set of eyes.

Maintaining proper position on tow, watching for signals from the tow plane, KNOWING the difference between a wing wag and a rudder wag can save our lives at those critical moments. Remembering too that there are at least two and sometimes three lives at stake on tow. (or 4 in a 2-32.)

To see accidents happen with DPE's, CFI-G's and otherwise experienced pilots drives home the need to remember that this can happen even to the best of pilots. If a current, experienced pilot blows it at a critical moment, what's going to happen to the guy who flies twice a year?

Walt

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:52:15 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:

There are two things important here.
1. The importance of being ready to handle the rope break by practice.

No argument here.

Which direction do you turn?

This is an obvious question when winching and the answer is always the
same: downwind if there's any crosswind, because that opens the circuit
out at minimal cost.

I almost asked about it earlier in the thread and then decided that was
obvious - you'd turn the same way as usual because that's what the tow
pilot is expecting. So, is this the correct answer and, if not, what is?

If a current, experienced pilot blows it at a critical
moment, what's going to happen to the guy who flies twice a year?

At my club he'd be given a mandatory check flight if he hadn't flown for
more than a month and rocked up expecting to fly solo.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jul 14, 9:57*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

I almost asked about it earlier in the thread and then decided that was
obvious - you'd turn the same way as usual because that's what the tow
pilot is expecting. So, is this the correct answer and, if not, what is?

With a crosswind and only the takeoff runway as a landing option the
choice should usually be into the wind.

A turn into a crosswind will reduce the deviation of the glider from
the extended runway centre line and reduce the distance required to
return to the runway centre line for landing. It therefore reduces
the altitude loss for the course reversal.

Imagine a 90 deg cross wind that equals the glider's airspeed. A turn
into wind can be accomplished on the runway extended center line. Now
consider how far the glider must go to complete the turn if made
downwind.

Andy

Originally Posted by Andy[_1_]

On Jul 14, 9:57*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

I almost asked about it earlier in the thread and then decided that was
obvious - you'd turn the same way as usual because that's what the tow
pilot is expecting. So, is this the correct answer and, if not, what is?

With a crosswind and only the takeoff runway as a landing option the
choice should usually be into the wind.

A turn into a crosswind will reduce the deviation of the glider from
the extended runway centre line and reduce the distance required to
return to the runway centre line for landing. It therefore reduces
the altitude loss for the course reversal.

Imagine a 90 deg cross wind that equals the glider's airspeed. A turn
into wind can be accomplished on the runway extended center line. Now
consider how far the glider must go to complete the turn if made
downwind.

Andy

I can imagine a 90 degree crosswind that equals the gliders speed but I wouldn't be taking off under those conditions. If the wind is that strong I would need to be pointing very much into wind. Had takeoffs and landing in both my Ventus a and Nimbus 3D at 18 - 21 knots at 45 degrees to runway and out landing field alike and there wasn't much directional control left.

Your illustration has little practical value.

Subject to local variations I would agree with Martin that a downwind turn in crosswind conditions is often the better option as it enables you to fly a teardrop pattern to the centreline more easily.

Cheers
Colin

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:13:53 -0700, Andy wrote:

On Jul 14, 9:57Â*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

I almost asked about it earlier in the thread and then decided that was
obvious - you'd turn the same way as usual because that's what the tow
pilot is expecting. So, is this the correct answer and, if not, what is?

With a crosswind and only the takeoff runway as a landing option the
choice should usually be into the wind.

A turn into a crosswind will reduce the deviation of the glider from the
extended runway centre line and reduce the distance required to return
to the runway centre line for landing. It therefore reduces the
altitude loss for the course reversal.

Imagine a 90 deg cross wind that equals the glider's airspeed. A turn
into wind can be accomplished on the runway extended center line. Now
consider how far the glider must go to complete the turn if made
downwind.

I initially thought into wind, i.e. opposite to what I'd mentally run
through in my pre-winch-launch eventualities, was the answer.

Then it occurred to me that, if the cross wind was such that turning into
it caused you to turn opposite to the local aero tow release convention
and the tow pilot wasn't looking or was dealing with a situation at his
end that had forced the tow to be abandoned, you could easily end up in
conflict with the tow plane. Not a good place to be.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |