The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:
The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

maybe it doesn't work because it's never taught, except out of a book.

I've never seen this practiced anywhere, ever. I suggest CFIG
instruct student to open spoilers on tow at safe altitude (smoothly,
please), tow pilot (briefed ahead of time) gives the rudder wag when
he notices. We practice wave offs from time to time, we can do this
too.

Radios are good. Reliance on the radio is foolish. They are by far
the most unreliable pieces of equipment we use.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 22, 9:28*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 22, 8:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:

The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

maybe it doesn't work because it's never taught, except out of a book.

I've never seen this practiced anywhere, ever. *I suggest CFIG
instruct student to open spoilers on tow at safe altitude (smoothly,
please), tow pilot (briefed ahead of time) gives the rudder wag when
he notices. *We practice wave offs from time to time, we can do this
too.

Radios are good. *Reliance on the radio is foolish. *They are by far
the most unreliable pieces of equipment we use.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Repeating what I wrote in the other thread:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice, it is
the human nature of confusion and tunnel vision under stress! Imagine
you are on tow and barely climbing (since your spoilers are out),
your first thought is that something is wrong with the tow plane, and
once you see the tow pilot waggle the rudder (which may also cause the
wings to rock a little), I bet over 90% of pilots will release, even
if they just practiced this manuver a week ago. There are many
examples confirming this, luckily not all of them resulted in
accidents.
Bottom line: Use radios! If this doesn't work, do not waggle rudders
until at safe altitude, unless the tow plane can not climb at all.

Ramy

I think the standard and enforced use of signals is the best way all
around. Too many times when things get busy, radios or mikes are
dropped, misplaced, tuned off frequency or you name it.
Too many clubs start introducing their own idiosyncratic signals.
Standardize them.
But what do I know? MSL seems logical to me, but some insist on AGL.
Sometimes when reading these threads, especially if one is an
infrequent follower, one comes away with the impression, "I'm glad I'm
not flying with him" followed very quickly with "I'm glad he's not
flying with me". Lots of emotion out there.
Leave the FAA out of things.

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

I can't understand Japanese. That doesn't mean Japanese is an
unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
Japanese. My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
wag so I damn well understand it.

The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, is why anyone would pilot
a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.

On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy wrote:





On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

I can't understand Japanese. *That doesn't mean Japanese is an
unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
Japanese. *My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
wag so I damn well understand it.

The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, *is why anyone would pilot
a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.
Following your example, we don't use Japanese when talking on the
radio (in the US), although there is nothing wrong with Japanese,
right?
IMHO, those who believe that they are safe since they practice and
never make mistakes are at the highest risk of accidents.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

Over the years the rudder wag has been used to relay many things.I
once tried to steer a tow plane and got a rudder wag (meaning NO, I
will deliver you where I know the best lift can be found). For many
years, the rudder wag was used to indicate "Get off now dummy, you're
in a thermal". These little memories never go away, they are always
there hiding in little dusty corners of our minds. If you have left
the spoilers unlocked, the tow won't be going well. You know something
is wrong...................when you see a rudder wag, your memory can
pump out a bad snap reaction. This is exactly what happened to Joe at
Minden. The tow wasn't going well, he knew something was wrong and
probably suspected the tow planes engine wasn't putting out enough
power. Joe had a radio, but I suspect the battery had gone dead
sometime during the morning pattern tows. After repeatedly calling for
Joe to close his spoilers and just after clearing the wires at the end
of 30, the tow pilot gave the rudder wag. A CFI with thousands of
hours instructing, pulled the plug, turned 180 left and flew into the
wires. This accident should never have happened, but the point is, IT
DID!
How can we prevent it reaccurring?
+ Always do a com-check before every takeoff.
+ Never give the rudder wag below 1000 feet
+ Learn and use the proper signals.
My club is religious about com-checks and the tow pilot won't start
the tow until he gets a Canopy & Spoilers Closed & Locked, slack out,
JJ's ready for takeoff.

Originally Posted by T8

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

I'd second the above on both counts. In my time gliding I have seen all to often the emergency procedures glossed over and not properly and effectively trained UNTIL they become ingrained, automatic responses.

Colin