The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 22, 1:36*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 22, 1:56*pm, Ramy wrote:





On Jul 22, 10:41*am, T8 wrote:

On Jul 22, 1:33*pm, Bill D wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:14*am, Ramy wrote:

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice,

Sorry, that's EXACTLY what it is. *Blaming human psychology is a cop
out.

Learning to fly is overcoming panic reactions and misguided natural
instincts.

Thread winner, right there.

-T8

No one argue against practice, but against a signal which does not
work in most cases and kills people. Yes, part of the solution is to
practice everything over and over again, perhaps every flight instead
of doing actual soaring, but why not use better methods to adress this
situation, such as radios? Every tow plane and every glider should
have an operating radio.
And if a radio call is not solving the problem, continue towing to a
safe altitude before giving a signal. In most situations a tow plane
can continue climbing slowly even with open spoilers. If this is not
the case, it is probably a real emergency and there may not be enough
time even for a signal.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

I can't understand Japanese. *That doesn't mean Japanese is an
unworkable language, it just means I can't understand it.
Fortunately, so far, my life hasn't depended on understanding
Japanese. *My life certainly can depend on understanding the rudder
wag so I damn well understand it.

The real mystery, in fact the only mystery, *is why anyone would pilot
a glider when they don't understand a life saving signal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.
Following your example, we don't use Japanese when talking on the
radio (in the US), although there is nothing wrong with Japanese,
right?
IMHO, those who believe that they are safe since they practice and
never make mistakes are at the highest risk of accidents.

Ramy

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?



Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.



Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
minimize mistakes and their effects").

On Jul 22, 3:34*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.

Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
minimize mistakes and their effects").

Yes, and the pragmatists know the moralists are wrong. :-)

Darryl

On Jul 22, 4:42*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 22, 3:34*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:

The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.

Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
minimize mistakes and their effects").

Yes, and the pragmatists know the moralists are wrong. :-)

Darryl

Right on Darryl
And as the following post demonstrates, moralists don't realize they
are wrong even when you show them the facts and explain over and
over..
I am happy to be a pragmatist, I think pragmatists are safer since
they know their limitations

On Jul 22, 4:34*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
The signal works perfectly - it can always be given and seen. *If the
human receiving the signal doesn't understand it, that's not the
signal's fault. *If the human can't understand a simple visual signal,
why would anyone suppose they could operate a radio correctly?

Perhaps you are perfect, but most of us are human, and human makes
mistakes with confusing signals under a stressfull situation.
The statistics confirms that.

Ah, the eternal argument between the Moralists ("Damn it, people
shouldn't make mistakes, so we should design our systems on the
assumption that people do not make mistakes"), and the Pragmatists
("People make mistakes all the time, so our systems must be designed to
minimize mistakes and their effects").

Nothing to do with morals or pragmatism but just people not learning
what they need to know to stay alive - which is very frustrating.

Radios are fine and I advocate them - but they can fail for a lot of
reasons. We will always need a backup visual signal and we have a
good one. Instructors need to do their job so pilots recognize it
when they see it. From now on it's the first question on a Flight
Review - if the pilot doesn't know the right answer, my signature
isn't going in their logbook.

No, I'm not perfect, I just read the manual - but that may be unusual.