The rudder waggle signal does not work

On Jul 22, 2:46*pm, "vaughn" wrote:
"Dan Marotta" wrote in message

...

So... *What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? *Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. *Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.



I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. *Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. *I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. *As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
release when they got the rock-off signal?

Darryl

On Jul 22, 2:53*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 22, 2:46*pm, "vaughn" wrote:





"Dan Marotta" wrote in message

...

So... *What would you have the tow pilot do, release the glider or, possibly,
crash into the trees? *Either way, the glider is down.

Require radios and use them. *Compared to gliders, they are dirt cheap.

I've been away from soaring for 9 of the previous 10 years, but it's my
recollection that the rudder wag was not an official signal - only a
suggestion. *Maybe it should be made an official signal and tested on BFRs and
check rides.

It's been a few years since I was an active CFIG, but we tested the rudder
waggle on every flight review. *I don't recall anyone failing to release when
they got the waggle except for a few cases when they were briefed immediately
before the flight.. *As far as I can see, the signal is well intended, but a
complete failure.

Vaughn

Uh I assume that was an unintended typo and you meant failing to
release when they got the rock-off signal?

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No I believe he meant that everyone released by mistake...
And this was not even under real emergency pressure.
Exactly my point.

Ramy

Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. It is the most basic of pilot
duties........


The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals


Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "
wrote:
Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
duties........

The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals

Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl

On Jul 22, 7:39*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "





wrote:
Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
duties........

The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals

Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal


everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie

On Jul 23, 5:21*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:39*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:





On Jul 22, 3:49*pm, "

wrote:
Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. *It is the most basic of pilot
duties........

The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals

Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

I appreciate the comment, but broadening the discussion is more a
distraction to this than a help. One way of making sure something
really broken is not fixed is to keep making the problem bigger. Bad
things happen and when they do there needs to be a mechanism,
hopefully a practiced plan of action, to handle them. The causes of
these fatalities is really releasing low/in an a bad position. Fix
that problem and people won't get killed. In may cases (with powerful
enough tow planes) they might just be embarrassed and the glider pilot
ends up having to buy the tow pilot a beer that night because the tow
plane had to struggle to tow them for a while.

We all need the radio and signal procedure chain to work as
effectively as it can possibly do. That includes getting radios
properly installed in gliders and tow planes and properly using them,
tow pilots being trained to think when to most safely to use a radio
and signal followup if needed, and us community of glider pilots to
get our heads out of our collective asses on the broad lack of
proficiency with in-flight signals.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

*lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal

everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just re read.......not powerful enough tow plane is also a problem..

There are only two possible in-flight signals initiated by the tow
pilot.....wing rock, rudder waggle...that's it.

I learned these in about lesson two of my training and have remembered
them ever since . I teach these to my students and they seem to have
no trouble remembering. It's not hard.

To me, a visual signal is a far better form of communication than a
radio braodcast.

The visual signal is quick, simple, to the point, obvious, etc....

Somebody already stated the possible "possible problems with relying
on radio"...there are many....

The low tech solution wins out by far!


Cookie

You guys are simply amazing....

So far you have "blamed" the accident on

lack of radio

the rudder signal

The lack of good instruction

the topilots' use of the signal


everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

Cookie[/quote]


Well, at least no one has blamed George Bush for this yet.

Walt

So far you have "blamed" the accident on
lack of radio
the rudder signal
The lack of good instruction
the topilots' use of the signal

everything to divert responsibility away from the glider pilot and on
to something/someone else

By this logic, there's no such thing as a bad training program.

Assigning blame is off-topic.

It's not a question of blame. No one denies that the pilot is
responsible for all of his actions.

The issue is whether our national training program (as promoted by
SSF) contains an unforeseen flaw that is contributing to the accident
rate.

Originally Posted by

Isn't everyone missing the cause of this accident and ones like it?

Written, Pre-take-off checklist is all that is needed to prevent this
accident from ever happening. It is the most basic of pilot
duties........


The pilot made at least 5 obvious (easily preventable) errors leading
up to the accident.

1. preflight inspection (usually states spoilers/flaps to take off
position)
2. pre take off check list..."spoilers closed and locked"
3. During tow, Left hand should be on, near, behind, spoiler handle to
sense unwanted spoiler opening
4. Situational awareness of poor climb should result in immediate
spoiler check
5. Pilot should be familiar with signals


Pilot should also include "enmergency plan" in take off check
list ....planning for emergencies such as rope break, tow plane wave
off signal, canopy opening, tow plane loss of power, and spoilers
opening (and signal form tow plane)....none of these should cause any
major concern if they happen...If the pilot is properly prepared..

Cookie

Well said

It takes discipline to do all that and some people just don't do discipline well. It won't catch every problem or save everyone but it's better than not following a rigorous and proven procedure.

Airline flying for example is one of the safest forms of transport going and it is highly procedural.

I come from a place where we do CBSIFTCB as checks and the best thing that happened while I spent some years away from soaring was the additiion of E for Eventualities to the end of the checks to review briefly before the launch the 'what ifs'

Colin