Change the rules for the National Guard.?

Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 2/20/04 12:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Art wrote:
Art wrote after I called his statement Bull****:

Then so does Colin Powell. He said exactly the same thing.

Fine, please reference a source that I can look up.
You did not reference it as a quote in your intial post. Just because
Powell
was a General Officer does not preclude him from uttering bull**** either.

Rick Clark


I guess none of us are above uttering bull****.

Correct Art, you got this one exactly correct!
Now, show us a reference that we can look up and read Mr. Powell's statement
and/or tell this group that you are quoting him verbatim.
I will still state that under current day situations that the statement is
bull**** and an apology is owed by whoever made such an ignorant statement.

Rick Clark
No I am not in the Guard



Colin Powell was once outraged by elites who “wrangle slots in Reserve and
Guard units.� Now he defends George Bush, who wrangled himself into a Guard
unit.
By John Greeley


In his autobiography, Colin Powel is truly revealed as a man of honor.
Certainly his military career provides us an example of what is best in
American society and also in the man himself. His rise to the heights of
military command speaks volumes on both counts. This is especially true since
he is a man of color. Perhaps in no other country in the world could this
happen, and it should make us all proud.

In particular, one comment he makes in his autobiography comes to mind at this
time because of something he just said while giving testimony on Capitol Hill.
It was in response to some questions Rep. Brown, (Dem, Ohio), had concerning
the ongoing problem of President Bush and his Air National Guard attendance
record.

The Secretary of State fairly bristled at the comment that President Bush might
have been AWOL towards the end of his Air National Guard career and told the
Representative in no uncertain terms, “Don’t go there!� along with an
admonition that if the Representative wanted to turn this into a political
fight, there was a time and place for it.

From where I sat, it was a ferocious and threatening display of raw,
confrontational, Executive Branch power. It immediately reminded me of
something I had read in his autobiography in which he wrote:

I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed ... managed
to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units .... Of the many tragedies
of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to
the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to
their country (Colin Powell, My American Journey, p. 148)

We are all entitled, of course, to change our minds about important issues over
the course of our lifetimes. But there is the unmistakable ring of truth, I
think, in that quotation from his book. Here we have a man dedicated to the
honor and glory of the Army and the terrible sacrifices those who serve in it
must make. He is justly outraged at the prospect of wealth and privilege
trumping the need for sacrifice in the cause of this great nation. He reveals
himself as a genuine, life-long soldier. A man imbued with duty and honor.

Yet the face he shows as Secretary of State is entirely different. Here, he
defends his President from the slings and arrows of the political fray no
matter what the cost to him personally or to those ideals expressed above.
Perhaps if Colin Powell had done his duty in his capacity as Secretary of
State, that “allegiance to their country� he spoke of so eloquently might
have saved us from the unwarranted invasion of Iraq and thus preserved
thousands of lives. That failure certainly is “…damaging to the ideal that
all Americans are created equal…�

It must be hard to reconcile the two positions, but that is what happens at the
top of the pyramid where all power coalesces and moral clarity is sharpest. On
the day the invasion of Iraq began, there should have been resignations
tendered at the highest levels because those men, of all people, understood
what a betrayal of our basic American principles it was. To stay meant to
acquiesce in the lies and now there is nothing left to do but to bristle at the
criticisms, even the very timid ones such as Representative Brown offered, and
hope that is enough to save your job and your dignity.


John Greeley is a Marine Corps veteran of Vietnam, a graduate of St. John's
University Law School and a contributing editor at Intervention. You can email
your comments to John at




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Correct Art, you got this one exactly correct!
Now, show us a reference that we can look up and read Mr. Powell's statement
and/or tell this group that you are quoting him verbatim.
I will still state that under current day situations that the statement is
bull**** and an apology is owed by whoever made such an ignorant statement.

It'll be a cold day in hell when Kramer answers *any* challenges put forth to
him. His wealth of WW II experience is wasted on this ng because of his
complete lack of knowledge about *anything* after 1946.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Art came up with references to Mr Powell's biography/autobiography referencing
the statement that Art quoted/paraphrased.

After reading those quotes/references I will agree that Mr. Powell may have at
one time in his military career may have held or stated stated such opinions. I
will also agree at some points in Mr. Powell's career such statements contained
truth.
I still stand by by statement that in the current situation those statements
are not applicable and I have serious doubts that Mr. Powell would make the
same statement at this time or during his later career in the Pentagon.
In the current situation the statement that Art quoted/paraphrased is still
bull****. Circa 1965 to 1973 the statement would have been applicable in a lot
of circumstances, especially if you were a brown bar grunt Lt or an off the
street draftee.

Rick Clark

Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 2/20/04 1:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Art came up with references to Mr Powell's biography/autobiography
referencing
the statement that Art quoted/paraphrased.

After reading those quotes/references I will agree that Mr. Powell may have
at
one time in his military career may have held or stated stated such opinions.
I
will also agree at some points in Mr. Powell's career such statements
contained
truth.
I still stand by by statement that in the current situation those statements
are not applicable and I have serious doubts that Mr. Powell would make the
same statement at this time or during his later career in the Pentagon.
In the current situation the statement that Art quoted/paraphrased is still
bull****. Circa 1965 to 1973 the statement would have been applicable in a
lot
of circumstances, especially if you were a brown bar grunt Lt or an off the
street draftee.

Rick Clark


Your apology is accepted.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 2/20/04 1:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Correct Art, you got this one exactly correct!
Now, show us a reference that we can look up and read Mr. Powell's statement
and/or tell this group that you are quoting him verbatim.
I will still state that under current day situations that the statement is
bull**** and an apology is owed by whoever made such an ignorant statement.

It'll be a cold day in hell when Kramer answers *any* challenges put forth to
him. His wealth of WW II experience is wasted on this ng because of his
complete lack of knowledge about *anything* after 1946.


BUFDRVR

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to
wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin Powell, My
American Journey, 1995

I guess it is now a cold day in hell.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art wrote:
Your apology is accepted.

I didn't apologize Art.

Under the current situation the statement, which you attributed to Powell
after the
fact, is still Bull**** and an apology is owed to those people currently
serving.

I personally don't need your apology because I am not in the Guard.

But you did spend your adult non-military career in advertising, didn't you?

Rick Clark

Art wrote after quoting from Powell's book published in 1995:
I guess it is now a cold day in hell.

Art, when did he say it, not the date it was published in the book?

And how cold is it in Las Vegas this afternoon?

Rick Clark

On 20 Feb 2004 22:20:03 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 2/20/04 1:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Art came up with references to Mr Powell's biography/autobiography
referencing
the statement that Art quoted/paraphrased.

I still stand by by statement that in the current situation those statements
are not applicable and I have serious doubts that Mr. Powell would make the
same statement at this time or during his later career in the Pentagon.
In the current situation the statement that Art quoted/paraphrased is still
bull****. Circa 1965 to 1973 the statement would have been applicable in a
lot
of circumstances, especially if you were a brown bar grunt Lt or an off the
street draftee.

Rick Clark


Your apology is accepted.


Arthur Kramer

I don't know if you've got the Powell book on your shelf. I do. You
might want to continue on to the next paragraph on p. 149 to see the
isolation of the comment to the bankrupt policies of the Johnson
administration. Powell was exactly right when referring to 1967-69 and
should be respected for calling a spade a spade. But, this discussion
is about: first, GWB's experience from 1970-74, and more importantly,
the state of the Guard/Reserve from post-Vietnam until today.

Clearly the record shows that the employment philosophy of the
Guard/Reserve components has changed drastically. Failure to note a
shift in policy over forty years is short-sighted and intellectually
bankrupt.

The Guard and Reserve are very active on the battlefields of America
and deserve the utmost respect.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
The guard is where you go when you don't want to go to war but want
everyone to
think that you do. End of story.

Do you still stand by your stupid statement ?
(without printing red herrings about Powell etc)
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to read about US "Guard" exploits in the War
against Terrorism.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:10:18 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:



Guardsmen from a single brigade deployed from
Florida had received over forty Purple Hearts in Iraq as of November; how
many did YOU get?

Brooks


While I agree with all that you said in the snipped portion (except
for the gratuitous and scatological personal attack),

Merited by Art's insult to those Guardsmen now serving, and those who have
recently been KIA.

I might simply
note that Purple Hearts are not a good measure of combat
effectiveness. While receipt of a PH is certainly a statement that you
were there, it doesn't mean that your contribution was particularly
effective.

It was intended to point out that Guardsmen are indeed serving under hostile
fire and contributing their fair share of the blood.


I'd much rather see the regional national equivalent of the PH be
awarded to the military of the opposition.

I'm proud to say that I've got no Purple Hearts. Never particularly
aspired to one.

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I) made,
I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's
just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated, than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Brooks




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8