IDAHO FATALITY

On Aug 22, 5:33*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?





While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

On Aug 22, 8:49*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:33*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:





On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale..
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been *a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Expereinced? well maybe......Clueless? Yep clueless!

Taking off with spoiler open...clueless
Spinning in the pattern....clueless
Running out of fuel...clueless
Should I go on?



Cookie

On 8/22/2011 7:49 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?





While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean that you are not
clueless. Just look at AF447 for an example.

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 22, 10:09*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:49 PM, Ramy wrote:









On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg *wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale..
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been *a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean that you are not
clueless. *Just look at AF447 for an example.

--
Mike Schumann

I think it was Stan Hall who commented years ago " a pilot who flys
with his glands rather than his brain does the sport no favors"

On 8/22/2011 9:15 PM, ray conlon wrote:
On Aug 22, 10:09 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:49 PM, Ramy wrote:









On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean that you are not
clueless. Just look at AF447 for an example.

--
Mike Schumann

I think it was Stan Hall who commented years ago " a pilot who flys
with his glands rather than his brain does the sport no favors"

The AF447 guys were flying with neither. How can you be flying at 70
knots and worry about exceeding VNE rather than realizing that you are
stalled? The wind noise alone (or lack there of) should have been an
obvious clue.

--
Mike Schumann

Originally Posted by Ramy

On Aug 22, 5:33*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?





While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Ramy,

I went thru the aerobatic phase of my life. I learned to fly in power and had the opportunity to get some good instruction in aerobatics from a highly qualified instructor. We were at significant altitude, never below 3000 feet when we started a loop or roll. We were wearing parachutes and discussed the egress procedure. I learned to fly these maneuvers to improve my flying overall. Let's face it, If your level of skill exceeds the minimum requirements you should be safer than average.

Obviously the safest thing would be to sit at home on our hands and do nothing but watch TV. There were two fatalities in air shows in the last few days. A guy spun in and a wing walker trying to transfer from a plane to a helicopter fell to his death. They do those things at least in part for the thrill and people go to watch for the same reasons, at least vicariously.

With all the fatalities in recent weeks I ask the following question. Who among us will discontinue flying as a result? We will continue to fly, the important thing is that we learn from the mistakes of others. Low pass? Not a great idea but I don't think it's going to stop. Does doing one go thru my mind? Yes it does. Will I do one? I don't think so, I'm older, smarter and less prone to the irrational acts of youth. That being said, if an opportunity to fly some acro at altitude comes along, chute on and let's do it.

Walt

On 8/22/2011 6:49 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?


Snip...

Greg,

I agree 100% with you there's also zero functional need to fly sailplanes,
so...fair question, "Why do it?" And I submit the question deserves a
reasonably soul-searching answer from each and every individual opting to
pursue this grand and soul-enriching sport...

However, would you not agree there's at least one huge, fundamental difference
between committing soaring and performing a low-altitude zoomie, i.e. that the
former *requires* (government-overseen) instruction before you can put
yourself or anyone else at risk, and the latter does not?

Stated another way, any soloed glider pilot can opt to self-teach zoomies,
whereas no amount of self-taught glider flying skill will get you a glider
license.

So once again I'd ask, why intentionally perform a thin-margin, zero
functional utility maneuver, whose (only) Plan B is itself, by the combination
of aerodynamics and physics, a thinnish-margin option? At least (to take one
more or less self-taught, thin-margin, common, accepted soaring activity as an
example) in ridge flying, Plan B (the turn away from the ridge) rapidly (or at
least within Joe Pilot's control, anyway) increases one's margins, if he gets
a chance to perform it. Every way I look at a zoomie, I see thin margins, high
risk, and some form of 'showing off' self-gratification. I'll delete the
'showing off' if you do your zoomies only immediately prior to your off-field
landings, of course.

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.

Ramy,

Again, I agree. However...

Who teaches themselves low-altitude, thin margin, aerobatics in gliders?

Where's the self-taught syllabus for performing zoomies?

Why not limit ourselves to above-pattern zoomies if they're so much fun?

What is it about being near the ground that makes zoomies more fun down there
than aloft?

Why not do them before all your off-field landings if 'ground-nearness' is a
crucial element? (Heck, *there* Joe Pilot can even rationalize he gets a
better look at the landing surface beforehand.)

Do you recommend self-taught glider aerobatics even well clear of the ground?
(If you do, I'll bet you great gobs of my own money that if you told some
newbie-to-aero to "Go for it," you'd also throw out lots of caveats, ship
limitations, etc., etc., etc.)
- - - - - -

Given we DO choose to self-gratify through soaring, I submit there are certain
'generally accepted' activities 'the group as a whole' decides are generally
better off not done. These undoubtedly change over time. For one example, in
the 1930's teaching soaring via solo-only primary trainers was the norm in the
U.S. Where is that the norm today? Why isn't it? What is it about zoomies that
should make them sacrosanct against similar safety concerns?

Yeah, I admit that last question has more than a whiff of rhetoric about it,
but I do believe that the time of the zoomie has come and gone, for reasons of
potential harm to the activity we all love. For the record, I cannot off the
top of my head recollect a zoomie-related fatality (the present case, for me,
still being 'not-governmentally-unconfirmed'/speculative), but I *do* remember
at least 3 contest-related finish gate zoomies noted in "Soaring" magazine in
which elevator flutter occurred. Oddly, not one of those pilots, nor any of
the observers (if one can believe what was reported) found those incidents fun
or emulatively entertaining.

Regards,
Bob W.

On Aug 23, 11:06*am, BobW wrote:
On 8/22/2011 6:49 PM, Ramy wrote:



On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg *wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

Snip...

Greg,

I agree 100% with you there's also zero functional need to fly sailplanes,
so...fair question, "Why do it?" And I submit the question deserves a
reasonably soul-searching answer from each and every individual opting to
pursue this grand and soul-enriching sport...

However, would you not agree there's at least one huge, fundamental difference
between committing soaring and performing a low-altitude zoomie, i.e. that the
former *requires* (government-overseen) instruction before you can put
yourself or anyone else at risk, and the latter does not?

Stated another way, any soloed glider pilot can opt to self-teach zoomies,
whereas no amount of self-taught glider flying skill will get you a glider
license.

So once again I'd ask, why intentionally perform a thin-margin, zero
functional utility maneuver, whose (only) Plan B is itself, by the combination
of aerodynamics and physics, a thinnish-margin option? At least (to take one
more or less self-taught, thin-margin, common, accepted soaring activity as an
example) in ridge flying, Plan B (the turn away from the ridge) rapidly (or at
least within Joe Pilot's control, anyway) increases one's margins, if he gets
a chance to perform it. Every way I look at a zoomie, I see thin margins, high
risk, and some form of 'showing off' self-gratification. I'll delete the
'showing off' if you do your zoomies only immediately prior to your off-field
landings, of course.

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.

Ramy,

Again, I agree. However...

Who teaches themselves low-altitude, thin margin, aerobatics in gliders?

Where's the self-taught syllabus for performing zoomies?

Why not limit ourselves to above-pattern zoomies if they're so much fun?

What is it about being near the ground that makes zoomies more fun down there
than aloft?

Why not do them before all your off-field landings if 'ground-nearness' is a
crucial element? (Heck, *there* Joe Pilot can even rationalize he gets a
better look at the landing surface beforehand.)

Do you recommend self-taught glider aerobatics even well clear of the ground?
(If you do, I'll bet you great gobs of my own money that if you told some
newbie-to-aero to "Go for it," you'd also throw out lots of caveats, ship
limitations, etc., etc., etc.)
- - - - - -

Given we DO choose to self-gratify through soaring, I submit there are certain
'generally accepted' activities 'the group as a whole' decides are generally
better off not done. These undoubtedly change over time. For one example, in
the 1930's teaching soaring via solo-only primary trainers was the norm in the
U.S. Where is that the norm today? Why isn't it? What is it about zoomies that
should make them sacrosanct against similar safety concerns?

Yeah, I admit that last question has more than a whiff of rhetoric about it,
but I do believe that the time of the zoomie has come and gone, for reasons of
potential harm to the activity we all love. For the record, I cannot off the
top of my head recollect a zoomie-related fatality (the present case, for me,
still being 'not-governmentally-unconfirmed'/speculative), but I *do* remember
at least 3 contest-related finish gate zoomies noted in "Soaring" magazine in
which elevator flutter occurred. Oddly, not one of those pilots, nor any of
the observers (if one can believe what was reported) found those incidents fun
or emulatively entertaining.

Regards,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bob, while I understand your sentiments about zoomies, and I myself
rarely do them and will think twice before I consider making another
one, you can't be seriously suggesting to make them above pattern
altitude. All the fun is the ground rush at nearly 150 knots few feet
of the ground. It makes perfectly sense to do them for those enjoying
doing them, the same as it makes sense for some people to do BASE
jumping. It also made sense to change competition rules in such a way
of not encouraging pilots to do them. The point is that if one
consider doing a low pass, he/she should be sure they know how to
perform it, how much energy they need, how fast they should go, their
ship limitations, traffic etc. They should also consider all the risks
involved, which includes things like spoilers popping open at fast
speed that some ships has tendency for. If this happens few feet above
the ground it is very bad news.

Back to the subject, I heard some reports that the low pass was so
slow it may have not been a low pass but a botched downwind...

Ramy