Powell on the National Guard

It's called a "net energy loss" because the energy required to *make* the
ethanol has to come from somewhere . . . like a coal burning plant . . . and
the joules required to make the ethanol is MORE than the joules the ethanol
itself releases.

Same for all the "hydrogen" type boondoggles.

Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get the "top
off" electricity to the vehicle and the extra energy required to manufacture
the hybrid side of the vehicle in the first place. Well, o.k., the newest
hybrids are probably right at break even now. The only reason they exist
now is some jackboot sticks a gun in our faces and steals our money to
subsidize the program. Try buyign a hybrid at "full price" and you'll see
what I mean.

If it takes more energy to make it than it releases, that just means you
have to burn more fossil fuels (or atoms, but that's pretty much out) than
you would have in the first place.

Oh yeah, and I love being lectured by our "Green" friends in Europe about
how great Diesel is . . .

Steve Swartz





"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
George Z. Bush wrote:

"D. Strang" wrote in message

Ethanol is a welfare program. It has nothing to do with future
energy.

You don't know what you're talking about. When you pour a gallon of
it into
your gas tank, that's one less gallon of gasoline that you're going to
need,
because it's supposed to burn just about as good as gasoline does.
That has
to
do with reducing gasoline consumption, the way I see it.
Unfortunately, for
some reason, it never caught on with consumers.

I like ethanol. My car does that is. Seems to run a little smoother
when I'm cruising across Iowa where "gasohol" can be found in
abundance.

But from an energy conservation point of view, it really isn't very
good sense. How much energy does it take to create ethanol from
corn? How much energy do you get back from burning it with gas?

It's a net energy loss IIRC.

Maybe it's because I don't fully understand how it works, but if, as you
say, it
runs as smoothly in your car as does gasoline and if the stuff is made of
surplus corn not otherwise needed to nourish human beings, why doesn't its
manufacture in far larger quantities than presently help to extend the
life of
our oil reserves? For every gallon of ethanol-containing gasohol that is
burned
(made of stuff that otherwise would likely rot and be of no value to
anyone),
would that not represent at least a portion of a gallon of gasoline that
won't
be burned in its place, therefore extending the life of our petroleum
reserves?
How can that be an energy loss?

Is the fact that there might not be as much profit in a gallon of gasohol
as
there is in a gallon of gasoline what inhibits an expansion of the amount
of
ethanol manufactured?

If so, should our national energy policy be based on the profitability of
the
fuel used by our nation's consumers, or should that factor have any
influence at
all?

it has been stated that if diesel prices reach $2.00 a gallon, that
the
current technology in algae production would be able to match that
price,
with future prices going lower as production increases, and technology
improves.

That's all well and good, but 25+ years after they started looking
into the
possibilities, there is still nothing available that is cost-effective
enough to
put on the market. Since no one denies that we ought to be able to
rub our
bellies and scratch our heads at the same time, why haven't they
created
greater
demand on vehicle manufacturers to produce engines capable of
simultaneously
reducing fuel consumption and expanding the life of our petroleum
reserves
and
stocks while, at the same time, continuing to explore alternative
sources?
That's a rhetorical question, and I'm sure you know the answer as well
as I.

Because oil is what drives the economy, and because no satisfactory
alternative is anywhere on the horizon, with the possible exception
of hydrogen driven fuel cell technology in perhaps 20 years.

The infrastructure is set up for oil and whatever replaces oil should
fit that same infrastructure for best effect.

The idea you're going to "stick it" to oil companies with some new
technology is naive.

As I recall, they said just about the same thing way back when most cars
could
only get 10 or 15 mph, and the federal government mandated that they
needed to
improve dramatically as their contribution to our national energy policy.
It
took a few years, but after that, just about every vehicle on the market
was
capable of getting 25-30 mpg from our existing fuel supply. I don't think
anyone is claiming that the efficiency of existing auto engines have
reached any
sort of pinnacle. I suspect that, if pushed, the manufacturers will again
produce, just as they have in the past. Call it naive if you will, but
many
people think it possible.

.....The oil companies will become the "hydrogen companies", or "solar
companies" or "wind
companies" of the future.
They're not going away and until fusion nukes come along, energy is
always going to be a hard to come by, costly resource.

In article ,
Leslie Swartz wrote:
Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get the "top
off" electricity to the vehicle

You mean like the Toyota Prius? The mileage figures include the
gas required to generate the electricity.

"Kenneth Chiu" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Leslie Swartz wrote:
Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get the
"top
off" electricity to the vehicle

You mean like the Toyota Prius? The mileage figures include the
gas required to generate the electricity.

The comparisons are even worse that that.

The extra price with hybrids makes up for a LOT of gas.

Using figures from edmunds.com:
A Honda Hybrid retails for $20,650, a regular LX Sedan for $16,160

highway mileage:
Hybrid = 47, Sedan = 38.

At $1.60 for gas, that extra $4000+ buys 1/2 million miles of gas at the
9mpg difference.
Even at $2.50/gal, it doesn't equal out til 300,000+ miles.

Using City mileage figures, it evens out at 200,000 miles.

Now...factor in the fuel and chemicals used to make that bigass battery
pack.
Now...factor in the maintenance and environmental price for the expected
battery replacement/disposal at 100-150,000 miles.

Is the Hybrid 'better'? Yes, if gas mileage is the only factor you're
looking at.

Pete

In article ,
Pete wrote:

"Kenneth Chiu" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Leslie Swartz wrote:
Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get the
"top
off" electricity to the vehicle

You mean like the Toyota Prius? The mileage figures include the
gas required to generate the electricity.

The comparisons are even worse that that.

The extra price with hybrids makes up for a LOT of gas.

Using figures from edmunds.com:
A Honda Hybrid retails for $20,650, a regular LX Sedan for $16,160

highway mileage:
Hybrid = 47, Sedan = 38.

At $1.60 for gas, that extra $4000+ buys 1/2 million miles of gas at the
9mpg difference.
Even at $2.50/gal, it doesn't equal out til 300,000+ miles.

Using City mileage figures, it evens out at 200,000 miles.

Now...factor in the fuel and chemicals used to make that bigass battery
pack.
Now...factor in the maintenance and environmental price for the expected
battery replacement/disposal at 100-150,000 miles.

Is the Hybrid 'better'? Yes, if gas mileage is the only factor you're
looking at.

I'm only pointing out that _if_ the OP is talking about cars
like the Prius, he is mistaken if he thinks the mileage
figures do not include the gas to generate the electricity.

Hey Kenneth:

That's a moot point. You only includes the gas burned by the *onboard* ICE.
I specifically said "topoff electricity" which most certainly is NOT
included in the mpg figure. The mpg figure is worthless anyhow, as others
pointed out. The energy required to *make* the vehicle and vehicle systems
above and beyond a comparable vehicle (delta energy, not net energy) makes
the Prius a loser.

OBTW, if you are comparing the price of the Prius to the LX sedan, try
$37,000+ which is the true price of the Prius (before the jackbooted thugs
et al subsidize the vehicle at someone else's expense).

Steve Swartz


"Kenneth Chiu" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Pete wrote:

"Kenneth Chiu" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Leslie Swartz wrote:
Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get
the
"top
off" electricity to the vehicle

You mean like the Toyota Prius? The mileage figures include the
gas required to generate the electricity.

The comparisons are even worse that that.

The extra price with hybrids makes up for a LOT of gas.

Using figures from edmunds.com:
A Honda Hybrid retails for $20,650, a regular LX Sedan for $16,160

highway mileage:
Hybrid = 47, Sedan = 38.

At $1.60 for gas, that extra $4000+ buys 1/2 million miles of gas at the
9mpg difference.
Even at $2.50/gal, it doesn't equal out til 300,000+ miles.

Using City mileage figures, it evens out at 200,000 miles.

Now...factor in the fuel and chemicals used to make that bigass battery
pack.
Now...factor in the maintenance and environmental price for the expected
battery replacement/disposal at 100-150,000 miles.

Is the Hybrid 'better'? Yes, if gas mileage is the only factor you're
looking at.

I'm only pointing out that _if_ the OP is talking about cars
like the Prius, he is mistaken if he thinks the mileage
figures do not include the gas to generate the electricity.

"Leslie Swartz" wrote in message ...
Hey Kenneth:

That's a moot point. You only includes the gas burned by the *onboard* ICE.
I specifically said "topoff electricity" which most certainly is NOT
included in the mpg figure. The mpg figure is worthless anyhow, as others

You obviously know nothing about the currently-available
gasoline/electric
hybrids. In the US, that's the Toyota Prius, the Honda Insight, and
the Honda Civic Hybrid (and hopefully more in the next year). With
the exception of 1 or 2 people who have been doing some serious
hacking/modding on their car to make a gridable hybrid, there IS NO
PLUG for any "topoff electricity."
ALL electricity for the car is either directly generated by excess
power from the gasoline engine, or through regenerative braking (when
coasting or braking, the otherwise lost kinetic energy (which would
convert to heat in brake pads) is tranferred by the electric motor
to the battery pack into kinetic energy). The hybrids are
self-sufficient
with charging or "topping off" the battery. The EPA MPG figures are
just for the gasoline, because that is the only fuel that you can put
into the current hybrids (no electric plug).

The only plug my 3-year-old 2001 Prius has seen is the same one that
most
people use on their traditional cars - the gas pump at the service
station.

Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get the "top
off" electricity to the vehicle and the extra energy required to manufacture
the hybrid side of the vehicle in the first place. Well, o.k., the newest
hybrids are probably right at break even now.

I understand that the battery bank in the gas-electrics like the Civic
have to be replaced at five years, so that's a measure of what the
hybrid side costs. (The car itself is really rather inexpensive.)

Could it possibly be true that it's not worth doubling your gas
mileage for five years at the expense of a battery bank? (Perhaps it
is. Math was never my strong point.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
Same for the "new" gas-electric hybrids. Yes, you get 60 miles to teh
gallon as long as you don't count teh energy stream required to get the "top
off" electricity to the vehicle and the extra energy required to manufacture
the hybrid side of the vehicle in the first place. Well, o.k., the newest
hybrids are probably right at break even now.

I understand that the battery bank in the gas-electrics like the Civic
have to be replaced at five years, so that's a measure of what the
hybrid side costs. (The car itself is really rather inexpensive.)

Where did you hear that?

Just because the warranty on the battery pack runs out in 8-10 years,
doesn't mean that the battery automatically needs replacing. (I'll
skip over that you can just replace a bad cell, rather than the entire
pack...) I have not heard of massive battery replacements for the
1998 Prius (originally sold only in Japan, now showing up used
elsewhere), but the battery technology has greatly improved from that
older model. (2004 Prius is on the 3rd generation)

Just because a bumper-to-bumper warranty expires, it doesn't
automatically mean that the bumpers will fall off or stop protecting
you in an accident either...