Two die in Glider mid-air

jcarlyle wrote:
Transponders are not a magic shield.

I fly with a Mode S transponder in the busy Philadelphia / New York
airspace. I often see airliners diverting course to go around me
(particularly commuters), but then there was the Southwest 737 that
flew 300 feet directly over me. I was thermalling at 5700, he was
straight and level at 6000. Gliders in this area have a discrete
transponder code, and we know from conversations with ATC that they're
keeping track of us specifically as glider traffic. So, I know for
certain that (1) the Southwest pilot was aware of me (long before I
was aware of him), and (2) he was also aware that I was a glider.

I'm not standing on principle here, if I'd seen him sooner I would
have quit thermalling and flown 90 degrees to his track while losing
altitude (quickly). But it was a hazy day, I was thermalling, he was
doing 250 kts, and I just flat didn't see him until he was about a
mile away.

Moral - keep a good lookout, amd remember that stuff can happen in
spite of a transponder...

-John

Something is a little strange here as this seems well within the
altitude difference window that should have generated an RA. Which is a
big deal to the 737 crew both from the immediate required response to
the RA and subsequent reporting/paperwork.

Darryl

I'm also puzzled as to why he didn't react to my presence. I would
think that his TCAS would have detected me. Nevertheless, there he was
- no course or alititude variation at all, he just flew right over me,
going _real_ fast. The other thing about it was that he wasn't on a
normal arrival path for PHL. I had my biannual VFR transponder check 3
weeks after this experience, and the Trig TT21 passed just fine. I
don't know what happened, but I hope not to be caught in a similar
situation again.

-John

On Sep 9, 5:14 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Something is a little strange here as this seems well within the
altitude difference window that should have generated an RA. Which is a
big deal to the 737 crew both from the immediate required response to
the RA and subsequent reporting/paperwork.

Darryl

John

So my very next thought was has the encoder/altimeter system been tested
recently?

A standard biannual transponder check for a non-IFR aircraft does not
include a check of the altimeter/altitude encoder system, it just
includes RF tests--a fairly useless throwback to the days of much less
reliable traveling wave tube based transponders. The tests on first
install does include altimeter/encoder tests.

I've seen quite a few owners assume that the encoder/altimeter is being
tested, but unless you've made arrangement with the test provider this
just usually won't be done for these subsequent checks.

A simple test is to compare the altimeter (when set to 29.92"Hg) and
what the TT21 display says for the altitude. But that does not exclude
problems like the static line being disconnected behind the panel or
contaminated with water etc.

If this had happened to me and I'm sure my transponder was working I'd
probably contact the ATC/approach folks and have a chat - this just
should not happen with a TCAS II equipped 737. Unfortunately we don't
have Mode-S RA downlink really used in the USA. When used (like more
widely in Europe) that provides ATC controllers with direct visibility
to RA events in their airspace.

Darryl


On 9/9/11 2:48 PM, jcarlyle wrote:
I'm also puzzled as to why he didn't react to my presence. I would
think that his TCAS would have detected me. Nevertheless, there he was
- no course or alititude variation at all, he just flew right over me,
going _real_ fast. The other thing about it was that he wasn't on a
normal arrival path for PHL. I had my biannual VFR transponder check 3
weeks after this experience, and the Trig TT21 passed just fine. I
don't know what happened, but I hope not to be caught in a similar
situation again.

-John

On Sep 9, 5:14 pm, Darryl wrote:
Something is a little strange here as this seems well within the
altitude difference window that should have generated an RA. Which is a
big deal to the 737 crew both from the immediate required response to
the RA and subsequent reporting/paperwork.

Darryl

Darryl,

Although the encoder/altimeter weren't formally checked during the
biannual transponder check, the technician did me a favor and quickly
checked the correspondance at 0, 5000, 10000 and 20000 feet - they
were OK. I also routinely check the transponder altitude reading
against my alitimeter during each flight. So I'm pretty sure that's
all OK. As for your suggestion about chatting with ATC, that didn't
happen.

-John

On Sep 9, 6:48 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
John

So my very next thought was has the encoder/altimeter system been tested
recently?

A standard biannual transponder check for a non-IFR aircraft does not
include a check of the altimeter/altitude encoder system, it just
includes RF tests--a fairly useless throwback to the days of much less
reliable traveling wave tube based transponders. The tests on first
install does include altimeter/encoder tests.

I've seen quite a few owners assume that the encoder/altimeter is being
tested, but unless you've made arrangement with the test provider this
just usually won't be done for these subsequent checks.

A simple test is to compare the altimeter (when set to 29.92"Hg) and
what the TT21 display says for the altitude. But that does not exclude
problems like the static line being disconnected behind the panel or
contaminated with water etc.

If this had happened to me and I'm sure my transponder was working I'd
probably contact the ATC/approach folks and have a chat - this just
should not happen with a TCAS II equipped 737. Unfortunately we don't
have Mode-S RA downlink really used in the USA. When used (like more
widely in Europe) that provides ATC controllers with direct visibility
to RA events in their airspace.

Darryl

Ann Welch, a many time steward at WGC s , always warned against setting G
and R tasks due to the risk of collision; one nearly got me; about 3 secs
warning.
If you are running a cloud street, use the L/R lift indications to turn
slightly; no longer will you be a "stationary" speck to the other pilot and
the wing movment will make you easier to see.
A climbing turn is even better.
John F

Although the encoder/altimeter weren't formally checked during the
biannual transponder check, the technician did me a favor and quickly
checked the correspondance at 0, 5000, 10000 and 20000 feet - they
were OK. I also routinely check the transponder altitude reading
against my alitimeter during each flight. So I'm pretty sure that's
all OK. As for your suggestion about chatting with ATC, that didn't
happen.

-John

On Sep 9, 6:48 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
John

So my very next thought was has the encoder/altimeter system been
tested
recently?

A standard biannual transponder check for a non-IFR aircraft does not
include a check of the altimeter/altitude encoder system, it just
includes RF tests--a fairly useless throwback to the days of much less
reliable traveling wave tube based transponders. The tests on first
install does include altimeter/encoder tests.

I've seen quite a few owners assume that the encoder/altimeter is being
tested, but unless you've made arrangement with the test provider this
just usually won't be done for these subsequent checks.

A simple test is to compare the altimeter (when set to 29.92"Hg) and
what the TT21 display says for the altitude. But that does not exclude
problems like the static line being disconnected behind the panel or
contaminated with water etc.

If this had happened to me and I'm sure my transponder was working I'd
probably contact the ATC/approach folks and have a chat - this just
should not happen with a TCAS II equipped 737. Unfortunately we don't
have Mode-S RA downlink really used in the USA. When used (like more
widely in Europe) that provides ATC controllers with direct visibility
to RA events in their airspace.

Darryl

John F,

I understand your cloud street advice, but don't understand "G and R
tasks". Would you please elaborate?

In the case I was describing, I was in a house thermal 3 miles from my
home field, gaining altitude prepatory to starting a TAT. We get
fairly frequent turboprop commuter aircraft running between 4000 to
6000 feet from NW to SE (and vice versa) close to that area (they're
the ones I described as changing course to avoid us gliders), but no
one could recall ever seeing a jet airliner that low going from SW to
NE. It was a strange situation, made worse by him apparently not
detecting me via TCAS or knowing of me via ATC - and of course, me not
seeing him until he was way too close!

-John

On Sep 10, 9:33 am, John Firth wrote:
Ann Welch, a many time steward at WGC s , always warned against setting G
and R tasks due to the risk of collision; one nearly got me; about 3 secs
warning.
If you are running a cloud street, use the L/R lift indications to turn
slightly; no longer will you be a "stationary" speck to the other pilot and
the wing movment will make you easier to see.
A climbing turn is even better.
John F

[quote=jcarlyle;782917]John F,

I understand your cloud street advice, but don't understand "G and R
tasks". Would you please elaborate?


I would think 'Goal and Return' aka Out and Return

Colin

As a european and as a first hand experience from a mid air by the
FLARM system. It amazes me how still people can stick their head in
the sand and say Look-out is the only thing you need!

You need lookout supported by FLARM, supported by FLARM RADAR,
supported by TRANSPONDER for the big heavy metal, supported by
COLLISION MARKINGS on your plane..

and even then sometimes you find a plane passing you below that you
haven't spotted with your eyes first.

I was alerted by flarm in a thermal of another glider that flew in
front of me. he was hidden below my cockpit edge and out of my field
of vision. I was able to dive below him with 8 meters to spare !!
FLARM WORKS, Adopt it. If you start using it you will see your look-
out is poor sometimes....

Zen



On 9 sep, 17:14, Darryl Ramm wrote:
jcarlyle wrote:
Transponders are not a magic shield.

I fly with a Mode S transponder in the busy Philadelphia / New York
airspace. I often see airliners diverting course to go around me
(particularly commuters), but then there was the Southwest 737 that
flew 300 feet directly over me. I was thermalling at 5700, he was
straight and level at 6000. Gliders in this area have a discrete
transponder code, and we know from conversations with ATC that they're
keeping track of us specifically as glider traffic. So, I know for
certain that (1) the Southwest pilot was aware of me (long before I
was aware of him), and (2) he was also aware that I was a glider.

I'm not standing on principle here, if I'd seen him sooner I would
have quit thermalling and flown 90 degrees to his track while losing
altitude (quickly). But it was a hazy day, I was thermalling, he was
doing 250 kts, and I just flat didn't see him until he was about a
mile away.

Moral - keep a good lookout, amd remember that stuff can happen in
spite of a transponder...

-John

Something is a little strange here as this seems well within the
altitude difference window that should have generated an RA. Which is a
big deal to the 737 crew both from the immediate required response to
the RA and subsequent reporting/paperwork.

Darryl- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

Bart,

Collision markings and transponder exist. Flarm has been on order for
a year, and is not yet available. I'm hoping (a) I get the Flarm and
(b) they implement ADS-B display _before_ I have another aerial
encounter.

-John

On Sep 11, 4:59 am, bart s wrote:
As a european and as a first hand experience from a mid air by the
FLARM system. It amazes me how still people can stick their head in
the sand and say Look-out is the only thing you need!

You need lookout supported by FLARM, supported by FLARM RADAR,
supported by TRANSPONDER for the big heavy metal, supported by
COLLISION MARKINGS on your plane..

and even then sometimes you find a plane passing you below that you
haven't spotted with your eyes first.

I was alerted by flarm in a thermal of another glider that flew in
front of me. he was hidden below my cockpit edge and out of my field
of vision. I was able to dive below him with 8 meters to spare !!
FLARM WORKS, Adopt it. If you start using it you will see your look-
out is poor sometimes....

Zen

PowerFLARM does display 1090ES traffic now. It does not yet alert/warn
on 1090ES traffic threats. ADS-B especially with the screwed up
dual-link layer system being rolled out in the USA is a much larger
topic. Including how many threats out there today are actually 1090ES
data-out equipped. ADS-B data-out carriage for full participation,
Ground station coverage, ADS-B TIS-B and ADS-R support etc.

PowerFLARM portable units are about to roll out in the USA in greater
numbers - Urs updated here on that recently with info on the antenna
problems.

I think we have pretty good interest in PowerFLARM adoption in the USA
soaring community now. We could have been a lot further along and have
fewer dead pilots had we all, including the SSA, worked to more actively
encourage FLARM to enter the USA market years ago.

Darryl

jcarlyle wrote:
Bart,

Collision markings and transponder exist. Flarm has been on order for
a year, and is not yet available. I'm hoping (a) I get the Flarm and
(b) they implement ADS-B display _before_ I have another aerial
encounter.

-John

On Sep 11, 4:59 am, bart s wrote:
As a european and as a first hand experience from a mid air by the
FLARM system. It amazes me how still people can stick their head in
the sand and say Look-out is the only thing you need!

You need lookout supported by FLARM, supported by FLARM RADAR,
supported by TRANSPONDER for the big heavy metal, supported by
COLLISION MARKINGS on your plane..

and even then sometimes you find a plane passing you below that you
haven't spotted with your eyes first.

I was alerted by flarm in a thermal of another glider that flew in
front of me. he was hidden below my cockpit edge and out of my field
of vision. I was able to dive below him with 8 meters to spare !!
FLARM WORKS, Adopt it. If you start using it you will see your look-
out is poor sometimes....

Zen