About when did a US/CCCP war become suicidal?

"John Schilling" wrote in message
...
"Carey Sublette" writes:

The fundamental reason why 'Ivan', the Tsar Bomba, had no relevance to
the
strategic balance was that it was undeliverable against the U.S. The
weight
of this bomb - 27 tonnes - was nearly equal to the Tu-95's maximum
payload,
and two and a half times its normal weapon load. Range of the Tu-95 was
already marginal for attacking the U.S. even with a normal bomb load.
Even
worse, since the bomb's dimensions - 2 meters wide and 8 meters long -
were
larger than the bomb bay could accommodate part of the fuselage had to be
cut away, and the bomb bay doors removed. The bomb was partially recessed
in
the plane, but not enclosed, with over half of it protruding in flight. A
deployed version of a Tsar Bomba carrier would of course had a bulging
bomb
bay enclosure added, but this would have further reduced range from the
drag.


Wouldn't a deployed Tsar Bomba carrier have been a militarized Proton,
aka UR-500 aka 8K82? The space launch version uses only storable
propellants, can put twenty tons into low orbit with the smallest
fairing easily holding a 2 x 8 meter payload, and my references on
the space launch side claim that it was developed with the ICBM role
and the Tsar Bomba payload in mind from the start (1961).

Which was a stupid idea from the start, and so never implemented,
but rather less stupid than trying to send an overladen Bear across
the arctic.

The only references I recall seeing for models that were actually made were
bomb versions. They could have been used against NATO (but this has nothing
to do with MAD).

It seems likely that they investigated the Proton idea since it is the only
way to get it to America. Do you know of any attempts to develop an RV for
this? Can you give me any specific citations?

"Carey Sublette" writes:

"John Schilling" wrote in message
...

[Tsar Bomba barely fits in a Bear]

Wouldn't a deployed Tsar Bomba carrier have been a militarized Proton,
aka UR-500 aka 8K82? The space launch version uses only storable
propellants, can put twenty tons into low orbit with the smallest
fairing easily holding a 2 x 8 meter payload, and my references on
the space launch side claim that it was developed with the ICBM role
and the Tsar Bomba payload in mind from the start (1961).

Which was a stupid idea from the start, and so never implemented,
but rather less stupid than trying to send an overladen Bear across
the arctic.

The only references I recall seeing for models that were actually made were
bomb versions. They could have been used against NATO (but this has nothing
to do with MAD).

It seems likely that they investigated the Proton idea since it is the only
way to get it to America. Do you know of any attempts to develop an RV for
this? Can you give me any specific citations?


The one on my desk is _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_, Steven J. Isakowitz, Joseph P. Hopkins. and Joshia B. Hopkins,
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 1999.

No mention of RVs, which would be outside Isakowitz's focus, but the
historical section on the Proton includes:

"The Proton launch vehicle was developed by the design bureau of Vladimir
Chelomei. The Proton was designed to serve as both a heavy missile capable
of carrying 100 megaton warheads and as a large space launch vehicle. In
competition with his rival chief designers, Sergei Korolev and Michael
Yangel, Cjhelomei proposed to build the Proton as part of a family of
Universal Rockets of various sizes and functions. The small UR-100
[became the SS-11 ICBM, then SS-19 ICBM, then Rokot and Strela launch
vehicles]. The UR-200 medium ICBM was beaten out by Yangel's R-36
[which became the SS-9 ICBM, then the Tskilon launch vehicle]. Chelomei's
UR-700 ultraheavy-lift launch vehicle design also lost out to Korolev's
N-1 for the role of a manned lunar launcher. However, the UR-500 was
selected as a military heavy-lift launcher in 1961 and was given article
number 8K82.

Because the UR-500 was to serve a military role, it needed storable
propellants and large engines to burn them. Chelomei turned to Valentin
Gushko, who had proposed such engines for Korolev's N-1 booster. Korolev
had rejected them, preferring to use less toxic oxygen/kerosene propulsion,
but the design was suitable for Proton. Engine tests from 1961 to 1965
demonstrated the propulsion system, and Chelomei's designers had considered
a number of configurations for the launch vehicle. By 1965, the first
two-stage UR-500 was completed. By this time its military role had been
dropped. The cost of building silos would have been high, and it is likely
that improvements in missile targeting began to make the Proton's huge
warheads unnecessary. The first space launch was conducted on 16 July 1965"


Only other sources I can find, are probably derived from Isakowitz. But
his work is the bible in the space launch field, so I'm inclined to
believe him. And the timing and technology both fit - right about the
time of the Tsar Bomba test, the Soviets start developing a storable
propellant rocket the right size to loft a Tsar Bomba and RV towards the
United States.


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"John Schilling" wrote in message
...
"Carey Sublette" writes:

"John Schilling" wrote in message
...

[Tsar Bomba barely fits in a Bear]

Wouldn't a deployed Tsar Bomba carrier have been a militarized Proton,
aka UR-500 aka 8K82? The space launch version uses only storable
propellants, can put twenty tons into low orbit with the smallest
fairing easily holding a 2 x 8 meter payload, and my references on
the space launch side claim that it was developed with the ICBM role
and the Tsar Bomba payload in mind from the start (1961).

Which was a stupid idea from the start, and so never implemented,
but rather less stupid than trying to send an overladen Bear across
the arctic.

The only references I recall seeing for models that were actually made
were
bomb versions. They could have been used against NATO (but this has
nothing
to do with MAD).

It seems likely that they investigated the Proton idea since it is the
only
way to get it to America. Do you know of any attempts to develop an RV
for
this? Can you give me any specific citations?


The one on my desk is _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_, Steven J. Isakowitz, Joseph P. Hopkins. and Joshia B. Hopkins,
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 1999.

No mention of RVs, which would be outside Isakowitz's focus, but the
historical section on the Proton includes:

"The Proton launch vehicle was developed by the design bureau of Vladimir
Chelomei. The Proton was designed to serve as both a heavy missile
capable
of carrying 100 megaton warheads and as a large space launch vehicle. In
competition with his rival chief designers, Sergei Korolev and Michael
Yangel, Cjhelomei proposed to build the Proton as part of a family of
Universal Rockets of various sizes and functions. The small UR-100
[became the SS-11 ICBM, then SS-19 ICBM, then Rokot and Strela launch
vehicles]. The UR-200 medium ICBM was beaten out by Yangel's R-36
[which became the SS-9 ICBM, then the Tskilon launch vehicle]. Chelomei's
UR-700 ultraheavy-lift launch vehicle design also lost out to Korolev's
N-1 for the role of a manned lunar launcher. However, the UR-500 was
selected as a military heavy-lift launcher in 1961 and was given article
number 8K82.

Because the UR-500 was to serve a military role, it needed storable
propellants and large engines to burn them. Chelomei turned to Valentin
Gushko, who had proposed such engines for Korolev's N-1 booster. Korolev
had rejected them, preferring to use less toxic oxygen/kerosene
propulsion,
but the design was suitable for Proton. Engine tests from 1961 to 1965
demonstrated the propulsion system, and Chelomei's designers had
considered
a number of configurations for the launch vehicle. By 1965, the first
two-stage UR-500 was completed. By this time its military role had been
dropped. The cost of building silos would have been high, and it is
likely
that improvements in missile targeting began to make the Proton's huge
warheads unnecessary. The first space launch was conducted on 16 July
1965"


Only other sources I can find, are probably derived from Isakowitz. But
his work is the bible in the space launch field, so I'm inclined to
believe him. And the timing and technology both fit - right about the
time of the Tsar Bomba test, the Soviets start developing a storable
propellant rocket the right size to loft a Tsar Bomba and RV towards the
United States.

There discussion of this launcher, and its possible military role in Sergei
Khruschev's "Nikita Khruschev and the Creation of a Superpower" (2000). The
book has a fair amount of discussion of missiles, partly because Sergei was
an engineer for Chelomei. He is quite careful about missile designations,
and given his professional role his comments about Chelomei in particular
have a lot of credibility.

He introduces the UR-500 on pg. 472, in a scene where Chelomei is making a
pitch to Khruschev and the Defense Council for a role in ICBM development
(then assigned to Korolyev) in Feb. 1962:

"After completing his description of the UB [a guided ballistic warhead],
Chelomei began to outline proposals for developing a heavy booster rocket.
Vladimir Nikolayevich wanted to use it to launch space stations. (discussion
of the space station concept omitted). The diagram Chelomei displayed to the
Defense Council showed a space booster capable of lifting twelve tons into
orbit. It was called the UR-500. The booster's launch weight was impressive,
almost seven hundred tons. Other diagram displayed military aspects of the
UR-500. Proposals called for using it as a ballistic missile, with the
thrity megaton warhead which had been tested in the recent past."

On pg. 466 he discusses the Tsar Bomba test:

"... preparations were under way in October to set off a nuclear blast of
fantastic power - fifty megatons. Three such monsters, of thirty, fifty, and
one hundred megatons, had been prepared. It was decided to set off the
middle one. .. The problem was there was no booster rocket able to lift such
a heavy warhead."

I have read elsewhere that lower yield derivatives of the Tsar Bomba were
developed, including one of 30 Mt.

From this it seems that the UR-500 was developed primarily as a booster, but
with a possible military role inspired by the superbomb test in October
1961. From 1962 until some time after 1965 no booster would have been
available for any such large bomb (be it 30 Mt or 100 Mt), and only bomb
delivery existed as an option. By 1965 I think the gargantuanism popular
with Khruschev had fallen out of favor and they were no longer thinking of
deploying a weapon of this size as a warhead

Carey Sublette