Dear Mary...

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:30:30 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Of course not. But since marriage is a legal state, those governments
can redefine it as they wish.

Why is marriage a legal state? What gives government the authority to
redefine it? Is marriage not older than government?

Not really. People did pair up, but the legal concept of being joined
in the eyes of the law is relatively recent.

There are two kinds of marriage: civil and religious.

Civil marriage is what you get when you file for the license, then
sign it along with the person who conducted the ceremony and a couple
of witnesses. You can be married by anyone who registers with the
state. My sister is getting married next week, and my brother will be
performing the ceremony. All it takes is the license fee (about $80
in my county) and being able to show that you understand the rights
and obligations of marriage.

Religious marriage is what you get in your church or synagogue. It is
separate from civil marriage, but the two are often taken care of in
the same ceremony. It doesn't matter is you have a full wedding mass
conducted by an Archbishop.. the state doesn't recognize the wedding
until that slip of paper is signed.

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Now, I'd like you to explain what has happened to your life now that
over 3,000 gay couples have been married in San Francisco. Are you
married? I am, for almost 13 years now. My marriage is still solid
as a rock. What harm is being done? Explain it to me.

--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Not really. People did pair up, but the legal concept of being joined
in the eyes of the law is relatively recent.

There are two kinds of marriage: civil and religious.

Civil marriage is what you get when you file for the license, then
sign it along with the person who conducted the ceremony and a couple
of witnesses. You can be married by anyone who registers with the
state. My sister is getting married next week, and my brother will be
performing the ceremony. All it takes is the license fee (about $80
in my county) and being able to show that you understand the rights
and obligations of marriage.

Religious marriage is what you get in your church or synagogue. It is
separate from civil marriage, but the two are often taken care of in
the same ceremony. It doesn't matter is you have a full wedding mass
conducted by an Archbishop.. the state doesn't recognize the wedding
until that slip of paper is signed.

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.


Who is being denied marriage?



Now, I'd like you to explain what has happened to your life now that
over 3,000 gay couples have been married in San Francisco.


By "gay couples" I assume you mean same-sex couples. No same-sex couples
have been married in San Francisco. Marriage requires persons of the
opposite sex. Homosexuals are free to marry persons of the opposite sex
just as heterosexuals are. No rights are being denied to anyone.



Are you married?


Yup.



I am, for almost 13 years now. My marriage is
still solid as a rock. What harm is being done? Explain it to me.


Harm is not the issue.

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

Now, I'd like you to explain what has happened to your life now that
over 3,000 gay couples have been married in San Francisco.

By "gay couples" I assume you mean same-sex couples. No same-sex couples
have been married in San Francisco. Marriage requires persons of the
opposite sex. Homosexuals are free to marry persons of the opposite sex
just as heterosexuals are. No rights are being denied to anyone.

Wrong. over 3,100 people have been married. Not one of thiose unions
has been successfully challenged. In four different hearings judges
have refused to stop the marriages from occuring.

I am, for almost 13 years now. My marriage is
still solid as a rock. What harm is being done? Explain it to me.

Harm is not the issue.

Actually, it is.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...
Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

"Jez" wrote in message
...

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...
Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny
those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here
in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay couples
as straight couples.

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to
sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay
couples
as straight couples.

Don't forget that all important inheritance tax (AKA death tax). A person
can leave unlimited assets to their spouse and no taxes would be owing. But
if you are not married, the tax kicks in on estates just over $1 million
which when you think about it is not all that large an amount. Almost anyone
who starts out saving at a young age, saves modestly and invests in common
stocks can accumulate that much in a few decades. The tax rates can go as
high as 55%. Many gay people has substantial assets and marriage would
protect them from the tax man. The inheritance tax is supposedly semi
repealed but for now it is in force.
--
Ajax Telamon
"No profession or occupation is more
pleasing than the military; a profession
or exercise both noble in execution
and noble in its cause. No utility either
more just or universal than the
protection of the repose or defence
of the greatness of one's country.
The company and daily conversation
of so many noble, young and active
men cannot but be well-pleasing to you."

Michel de Montaigne (1588)

"Ajax Telamon" wrote in message
...

"Joy" wrote in message
...
Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to
sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA
rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay
couples
as straight couples.

Don't forget that all important inheritance tax (AKA death tax). A person
can leave unlimited assets to their spouse and no taxes would be owing.
But
if you are not married, the tax kicks in on estates just over $1 million
which when you think about it is not all that large an amount. Almost
anyone
who starts out saving at a young age, saves modestly and invests in common
stocks can accumulate that much in a few decades. The tax rates can go as
high as 55%. Many gay people has substantial assets and marriage would
protect them from the tax man. The inheritance tax is supposedly semi
repealed but for now it is in force.

Mmm Good point.
I can see why many (In Government)
would oppose them marrying for those reasons....


--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

"Joy" wrote in message
...


I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

This is speculation on my part, since I'm heterosexual, but I think that
things like being able to cover each other on health insurance, social
security benefits, the ability to file income tax jointly, being able to
sit
with each other in the intensive care unit, bereavement leave, FMLA rights
to care for a sick spouse or spouses children, ability to make medical
decisions for a sick spouse, immigration access for spouses, spousal
privilege in lawsuits, and so forth would matter just as much to gay
couples
as straight couples.

Those seem to me like perfectly valid reasons.

Thanks.

--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:52:52 -0000, a stranger
called by some "Jez" came forth
and told this tale in us.military.army

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

There are over a thousand legal benefits granted to married couples in
the United States. You've mentioned a couple.

Add in things like the ability to file joint tax returns, automatic
assumption of next-of-kin status, the fact that married couples cannot
be compelled to testify against one another, inheritance, insurance
benefits, etc.. it is a desirable state.

A group in San Francisco did a study a few years back, and figured out
it would take close to $30,000 and dozens of court visits to get even
close to what an $81 marriage license grants. And even then, you
don't get all the benefits.

But all that is secondary. Same-sex couples get married for the same
reason opposite sex couples get married: They are in love, and want
to join their lives. When I proposed to my wife, I didn't phrase it
as a business arrangement, I told her I loved her, and wanted to marry
her.

I wish you all could have seen SF City Hall during the first week of
gay marriages. The place was filled with joy. Couples who had been
together for decades were finally hearing words that had been denied
them. You couldn't find a bouquet in a five mile radius - they had
all been donated to the couples standing in line. A bridal shop took
all their old dresses, and gave them to people waiting in line,
walking down the line shouting "who needs a size 14? size 8? Remember
to pass it along!"

What does marriage mean to gays and lesbians? Thousands of people
slept on the sidewalk during a Pacific storm (heavy rains, high winds,
temps in the low 40s) for the chance to get married. People drove
from Kansas, Texas, even from Georgia because they couldn't get a seat
on a plane. People brought their parents, their kids, their friends.
I saw a SFPD officer and her partner married by the SFPD's chaplain,
with a full honor guard of officers. As each couple existed City
Hall, they held they marriage certificates up like a trophy, and get
cheers from the hundreds lined up along the sidewalks.

It's about love. As is all marriage.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

In article ,
Douglas Berry wrote:

...
I wish you all could have seen SF City Hall during the first week of
gay marriages. The place was filled with joy.

Hmmm, well I wasn't in the building (were you?), but I attended my son's
SF Unified School District's field trip to the SF Symphony (a block
away), and what I saw was a long line in front of city hall...some
making out in front of SFUSD first and second graders near them.



What does marriage mean to gays and lesbians? Thousands of people
slept on the sidewalk during a Pacific storm (heavy rains, high winds,
temps in the low 40s) for the chance to get married.


Yeah right. Did you see them "sleeping" there? I was downtown early
morning (7am) during that storm (which started at about 2am SF time) and
there were NO people in front of city hall. Are you just making this
stuff up?



--Mike