If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 2/27/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?
Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not?
Any
regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

Having heard the descriptions of that war from my father (coast defence
during summer 1940, including Cromwell, Atlantic escorts 1940-1943,
channel 1943-44, south atlantic escorts 1944-45) and some of his
contemporaries (whose service included variously intruder missions over
France in Beaufighters, tanks in France in 1940, the desert and Italy,
motor gunboats in the channel and the Adriatic, minesweepers in the
channel and flying fulmars over the western desert, then Corsairs in
the far east) I'm *profoundly* glad I missed it. I can see the scars it
left on people. I'm very glad that my generation didn't have to go through
that (and I think my parents generation are mainly glad that they saved
their children and grandchildren from having to do it).
That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
spared that.
The tragedy - in this country at least (.uk) - is the way part of that
generation's legacy - the country they built *after* they came home -
has been squandered by my generation.

--
Andy Breen ~

Very thoughtful post Andy. Many I have heard from over the last 60 years
expressed pretty much what you did. It often just starts with they wished they
had been there with us. It was a war worth fighting and their lives would have
been a bit more worthwhile had they fought that good fight. Then many question
if they could have done as well as we did if they were there with us. I always
assure them that they would have done exactly as we did had they been there
alongside us, And I believe that...
But I think that the sense of ultimate adventure and achievement has a lot to
do with it. The war was the ultimate event in the 20th cenntury, Many are sorry
they missed it,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 2/27/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?
Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not?
Any
regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
spared that.

Very thoughtful post Andy. Many I have heard from over the last 60 years
expressed pretty much what you did. It often just starts with they wished they
had been there with us. It was a war worth fighting and their lives would have

Thanks for the feedbacck, Art. It's something I've been thinking about
more than usual recently - my father having been very seriously ill
over the last week (he's almost completely recovered now - like many
of his generation he's a tough guy, in spite of having had a tough time).

Hope you won't mind me making a suggestion - I've been following the
accounts you've been putting up on your web-space (fascinating stuff):
Have you considered offering them to one of the archives for long-term
preservation (not that I'm not hoping you'll be with us for many years to
come!). The 2nd World War Experience Centre seems to be a rather good one,
and they are on the look-out for a larger US presence there.

http://www.war-experience.org/

I had some dealings with them when they put some stuff of my father's
up on the site - editing it into shape and so on - and they seemed
very good.

It's important that the next generation knows just what your generation
went through - and what they did for us.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 2/27/04 7:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 2/27/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?
Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
not?
Any
regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
spared that.

Very thoughtful post Andy. Many I have heard from over the last 60 years
expressed pretty much what you did. It often just starts with they wished
they
had been there with us. It was a war worth fighting and their lives would
have

Thanks for the feedbacck, Art. It's something I've been thinking about
more than usual recently - my father having been very seriously ill
over the last week (he's almost completely recovered now - like many
of his generation he's a tough guy, in spite of having had a tough time).

Hope you won't mind me making a suggestion - I've been following the
accounts you've been putting up on your web-space (fascinating stuff):
Have you considered offering them to one of the archives for long-term
preservation (not that I'm not hoping you'll be with us for many years to
come!). The 2nd World War Experience Centre seems to be a rather good one,
and they are on the look-out for a larger US presence there.

http://www.war-experience.org/

I had some dealings with them when they put some stuff of my father's
up on the site - editing it into shape and so on - and they seemed
very good.

It's important that the next generation knows just what your generation
went through - and what they did for us.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)


I have been thinking about that but I am not quite finished with it yet. More
to come. But any archive can simply download it can't they? BTW, Regards to
Mrs. Prothero. (:-))


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Hope you won't mind me making a suggestion - I've been following the
accounts you've been putting up on your web-space (fascinating stuff):
Have you considered offering them to one of the archives for long-term
preservation (not that I'm not hoping you'll be with us for many years to

I have been thinking about that but I am not quite finished with it yet. More
to come. But any archive can simply download it can't they? BTW, Regards to

I think this lot only do it by permission - might be worth dropping them
an e-mail when you're satisfied with it though. Just a suggestion.

Mrs. Prothero. (:-))

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 2/27/04 7:36 AM Pacific Standard Time

I think this lot only do it by permission - might be worth dropping them
an e-mail when you're satisfied with it though. Just a suggestion.

Mrs. Prothero. (:-))


I contacted them as soon as I got your post. I'll let you know when I get a
reply. Thanks for your help and interest..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" wrote in message
...

snip


It's important that the next generation knows just what your generation
went through - and what they did for us.

And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge that
the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them already
were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to lable
those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes the
astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its designated
target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of those
in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than his
own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
untrustworthy source IMO.

Brooks


--
Andy Breen ~

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:19:56 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge that
the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them already
were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to lable
those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes the
astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its designated
target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of those
in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than his
own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
untrustworthy source IMO.

I don't disagree with all of your criticisms - he seems happy enough
to denigrate others and seems to lack the intellectual honesty to
apply the rather intolerant historical standards he applies to others
to himself, but on the other hand, warts and all, his views of his own
experience are important historical information, and should be
preserved.

His personal contribution to WW2 exists independently of all the
ephemeral usenet bitching, even when he is a primary instigator of the
same bitching.

Gavin Bailey

"Presidente Alcazar" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:19:56 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge
that
the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them
already
were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to
lable
those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes
the
astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its
designated
target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of
those
in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than
his
own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
untrustworthy source IMO.

I don't disagree with all of your criticisms - he seems happy enough
to denigrate others and seems to lack the intellectual honesty to
apply the rather intolerant historical standards he applies to others
to himself, but on the other hand, warts and all, his views of his own
experience are important historical information, and should be
preserved.

His personal contribution to WW2 exists independently of all the
ephemeral usenet bitching, even when he is a primary instigator of the
same bitching.

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict. Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Brooks


Gavin Bailey

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:38 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict.

Sure, but then this just means he doesn't have the breadth of
character to express any objectivity about his experiences in this
forum. That's all.

Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Of course. He can still take pride in the efforts and achievements he
participated in, even if he's unable to take into account a reasonable
sense of proportion. Being a WW2 veteran doesn't automatically mean
that he's infallible or invest his personality with any external
benefit.

Gavin Bailey

Subject: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
From: Presidente Alcazar
Date: 2/28/04 2:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:38 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict.

Sure, but then this just means he doesn't have the breadth of
character to express any objectivity about his experiences in this
forum. That's all.

Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Of course. He can still take pride in the efforts and achievements he
participated in, even if he's unable to take into account a reasonable
sense of proportion. Being a WW2 veteran doesn't automatically mean
that he's infallible or invest his personality with any external
benefit.

Gavin Bailey



Gavin,

The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy bombers
working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near point
blank accuracy. A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T SEND
IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000 FEET.
The Bridge at Arnhem was a case in point where a target had to be taken our
immediately where failure was intolerable.We did that job from 8,000 feet and
wiped out that bridge in one shot.
Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II with
that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero knowledge
of bombing in WWII. Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
with near zero actual combat experience in the air..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer