Should SSA Regional contests allow water in FAI class...15, 18, 20,Open class?

On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost 50lb lighter than some others in my
class. In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

On Dec 15, 8:50*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? *Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). *I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost *50lb lighter than some others in my
class. *In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

Current US rules provide for organizer to allow bringing the the
weight of the light guys up to the heavy guys. This was implemented
in 2010.
UH

On Dec 15, 7:10*am, wrote:
On Dec 15, 8:50*am, Andy wrote:









On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? *Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). *I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost *50lb lighter than some others in my
class. *In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

Current US rules provide for organizer to allow bringing the the
weight of the light guys up to the *heavy guys. This was implemented
in 2010.
UH

The rule requires fixed ballast and does not allow the ballast to be
in the wings where it is safe. The rule also applies no handicap to
pilots that are over the handicap weight with no additional ballast.

With no fixed ballast I'm at the 778lb limit for my ASW-28 so there is
no way I can adjust up to an LS8 with a heavy pilot that may be well
over its 820lb limit. Since both gliders have the same wing area
there is an obvious disadvantage except when conditions are very
weak. The SSA handicap weight was never intended to be a weight
limit. It's just a reference weight for calculating a handicap. As you
know I have advocated setting the no ballast contest weight limit to
that of the heaviest un-ballasted glider in the class.

This problem is one reason to always allow ballast in FAI classes
except where it poses a safety issue - which provides feedback on the
OP's question.

Andy

Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

On Dec 15, 9:57Â*am, Tony wrote:
Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

No. Hank said the rule he was talking about was changed in 2010. The
limited ballast rule was not introduced until 2011.

Andy

On Dec 15, 9:57Â*am, Tony wrote:
Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

Yes you are probably right - although the limited ballast rule was
introduced in 2011 and not 2010. Did any contest implement the
limited ballast rule in 2011?

Andy

On Dec 15, 10:41Â*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 15, 9:57Â*am, Tony wrote:









Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

Yes you are probably right - although the limited ballast rule was
introduced in 2011 and not 2010. Â*Did any contest implement the
limited ballast rule in 2011?

Andy

We looked at using the provision at Logan region 9 contest in 2011.
We decided not to try it for a couple of reasons

1) For a given class when a flat weight number is used some gliders
will be at a disadvantage. Say you choose 800 pounds, and have a
ASH26 125.72 sq ft, ASG29 113 sq ft and V2CX 104.39 sq ft in the class
you can do the simple math and see that the V2CX has the highest wing
loading thus the advantage.

2) We combined the standard, and FAI classes into one class and there
is no provision for taking this into consideration when choosing a
weight. You cannot have a separate weight for each sub-class and in
this case the standard or 15 meter ships would have a big advantage.

3) It introduces more work to weigh the gliders and certified scales
will be needed.

I meant to document this and submit to the rules committee and suggest
a fix but did not get around to it. Plus I hate rule creep.

Ron Gleason

On Dec 15, 2:48*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:41*am, Andy wrote:


Cordele Region V South allows water ballast. Sometimes, like this
year, it is really worthwhile.

2) *We combined the standard, and FAI classes into one class and there
is no provision for taking this into consideration when choosing a
weight. *You cannot have a separate weight for each sub-class and in
this case the standard or 15 meter ships would have a big advantage.


Actually the RC is one step ahead of the game this time. From the
rules appendix,

"In a mixed class (e.g. 15/18) regional, the CD may set different
weights for gliders
from each class, to establish a roughly equivalent wing loading."

That said, the partial ballast rule is really intended to address
unusual conditions such as a very soft field that makes full ballast
takeoffs unsafe. (Cesar Creek 2010). It's intentionally rough-and-
ready for this reason. The RC did not put in a wing loading limit,
which might be fairer, because telling everyone and the scales team at
9 am to figure out their weight at 8.25 lbs/ft^2 and grid at noon
would be a disaster. It's better in the majority of cases to decide
water or no water and keep it simple.


John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 9:50*am, Andy K3WYC wrote:
On Dec 15, 7:10*am, wrote:









On Dec 15, 8:50*am, Andy wrote:

On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? *Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). *I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost *50lb lighter than some others in my
class. *In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

Current US rules provide for organizer to allow bringing the the
weight of the light guys up to the *heavy guys. This was implemented
in 2010.
UH

The rule requires fixed ballast and does not allow the ballast to be
in the wings where it is safe. The rule also applies no handicap to
pilots that are over the handicap weight with no additional ballast.

With no fixed ballast I'm at the 778lb limit for my ASW-28 so there is
no way I can adjust up to an LS8 with a heavy pilot that may be well
over its 820lb limit. *Since both gliders have the same wing area
there is an obvious disadvantage except when conditions are very
weak. *The SSA handicap weight was never intended to be a weight
limit. It's just a reference weight for calculating a handicap. As you
know I have advocated setting the no ballast contest weight limit to
that of the heaviest un-ballasted glider in the class.

This problem is one reason to always allow ballast in FAI classes
except where it poses a safety issue *- which provides feedback on the
OP's question.

Andy

test to see if my "nickname" gone back to "Andy" The other name was
intended only for use in a JT65 forum.