CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

These aircrafts were painted overall black for night operations and
operated by only a pilot, no wso, due to CIA mission rules.

1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

2. I was stationed at Takhli 10/72 to 4/73. While I was there, there were
_NO_ overall black F-111s there at the time. Most operations were night
missions, so the paint scheme would have been appropriate for that use
(jungle green mix, going to black on the bottom, IIRC). We had painted our
ALQ-87 jammer pods black so they wouldn't wouldn't stand out.

The overall grey/black paint scheme came in much later.

3. I doubt the CIA had 'control' of any military aircraft. They did have
their own resources ('Air America', mainly based in northern Thailand), but
not for the kind of missions you're describing. They may have requested
missions through the NCA, but that would require documentary proof.

The aircraft would depart their bases early in morning/late evenings and
no radio chatter was observed.

Radio silence would be common for operational security. A squadron
commander at the time described the silence as 'deafening' when Korat TACAN
finally faded out.

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here. The enemy is using the Ho Chi Mihn trail to
resupply their forces, the Nixon administration wants to get out while
giving the South Vietnamese a fighting chance, so they order missions into
neutral territory to disrupt that resupply.

George

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

There was nothing in the F-4 that would prevent it from being flown without
someone in the rear cockpit. The only necessary system there is the Inertial
Nav and that can be ser up on the ground with power connected. Radar wold be
inop and no contro lover jammers but not needed in an area like Laos.

(Smartace11) wrote:

1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

There was nothing in the F-4 that would prevent it from being flown without
someone in the rear cockpit. The only necessary system there is the Inertial
Nav and that can be ser up on the ground with power connected. Radar wold be
inop and no contro lover jammers but not needed in an area like Laos.

I stand corrected. I was thinking that a conventional strike mission would
need radar, jammers and a WSO to run them.

Another correction. I have seen local incentive flights with various
versions of the F-111 (once INS is aligned), but again, the typical deep
strike mission absolutely needed a full-time WSO to manage the nav/attack
functions. The AC had his hands full flying the airplane and making sure
the auto-TF did its job.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch
Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here. The enemy is using the Ho Chi Mihn trail to
resupply their forces, the Nixon administration wants to get out while
giving the South Vietnamese a fighting chance, so they order missions into
neutral territory to disrupt that resupply.

George

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them. For the
most part, the air war went into "standby" mode at night because our abilities
to operate in the dark were limited to gunships, B-57s and A-26s which operated
over the Trail. The gunships and the A-26s had black lower surfaces.

The only other black aircraft I know of was an H-3 helicopter that inserted
ground teams into Laos (I knew/know the pilot).


Ed

"There are no easy answers, but there are simple answers.
We must have the courage to do what we know is morally
right." --Ronald Reagan



(Delete text after dot com for e-mail reply.)

(RobbelothE) wrote:

Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch
Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here.

[snip]

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them.

[snip]

And my memory may have been playing tricks on me. Hell, it's been 30+
years... I don't know if I'm mixing up memories with the later LO gray SAC
FB-111s, but some of the A/C at Takhli may have gone to a gray/black night
low observable paint scheme.

Thanks for the info, Ed.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is just
another example of that.

Brooks

In 1969 when Nixon announced that "no American has died in Laos,
200 airmen (many of whom were Spad pilots from my Dad's unit --
the 602nd Fighter "Commando" Squadron) had already died there.

Kevy,

I wont rave on about your total lack of understanding in general about
what i do with information ive collected over the last 20yrs in
researching vietnam war operations which is close to my family's heart
in more ways then one, but ill let you be the judge when you talk 1-1 to
a highly talented, smart and interesting vietnam war era pilot and see
who comes off best..

Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....


If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....and
furthermore i know stuff via the source that this group doesnt even know
yet about the usaf/vietnam war.. so maybe youd be smarter to keep your
lid shut...

Also a hint go and read up on many books as you can on the CIA
operations in SEA in general and you might learn more about the war...
dark and mysterious it was...



Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is just
another example of that.

"Aerophotos" wrote in message
...
Kevy,

I wont rave on about your total lack of understanding in general about
what i do with information ive collected over the last 20yrs in
researching vietnam war operations which is close to my family's heart
in more ways then one, but ill let you be the judge when you talk 1-1 to
a highly talented, smart and interesting vietnam war era pilot and see
who comes off best..

Still making stuff up, eh JGG? What, the folks in the aus NG finally
succeeded in running you off?


Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....

No, but someone "close to my family's heart" did indeed serve in the RVN and
pulled a few missions into Laos during his tour. He talked about a lot of
things he saw and did, but never any fantastic CIA fast-mover force.
Strangley enough, no other reputable source has indicated the existance of
such a force, either. Or would you be thinkin' that a few T-28's, UH-34's,
and UH-1's also qualify under that *fascinating* (hysterically so)
description you provided us of this mythical force?



If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

You can suggest a lot of crap (and you often have..crap, that is). Do you
think that anybody really gives a rat's ass what you suggest, JGG?


My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

Now that is not exactly a ringing personal endorsement, considering the
source (you). Your track record thus far in this group ain't exactly that
hot, now is it? But at least here, unlike that Aussie group that so often
spanks you en mass, you don't have folks volunteering to search you out in
person (the trip's a bit too far for most, I guess).


Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....

So now it may not have been F-111's, and this wonderful source may have been
a bit fuzzy...but you don't doubt his story. That figures.

and
furthermore i know stuff via the source that this group doesnt even know
yet about the usaf/vietnam war.. so maybe youd be smarter to keep your
lid shut...

Oh, boy. The old, "I know seeecret stuff" ploy, coming from a kid who
supposedly just enetered the RAAF? Spare us.


Also a hint go and read up on many books as you can on the CIA
operations in SEA in general and you might learn more about the war...
dark and mysterious it was...

When you have a guy who can mistake a T-28 (not a black painted one, either)
for a F-111, then you got a credibility problem. Something you should be
plenty familiar with.

Brooks




Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of
69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original
poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was
there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is
just
another example of that.