If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Correct. It all boils down to exactly that. The air force, in
addition to the army, navy, marine corps and coast guard along
with the vast array of civilian intelligence and national security
agencies are all paid good money to defend the U.S. Afterall,
that be their jobs, man. But all of the above completely and totally
failed to do that on 9/11. Now, had they succeeded in stopping the
terrorist attacks on 9/11 we would all be singing their praises still
to this day. Oh well...ya' win some and ya lose some.

True enough but the issue is what was the nature of the failure ?

The primary agency responsible for defense against international
terrorism within the USA prior to Sept 11 was presumably the
FBI with the CIA being responsible for collecting such intelligence
overseas as may indicate foreign agencies involved

As an outsider it seems to me that it was those two agencies
along with the INS that failed to identify the nature of the
threat and the individuals involved. Had they given the USAF
a timely warning then by all means blame that body but they
clearly did not and the USAF would be heavily criticised if
it tried to usurp the functions of either the CIA or FBI.

Plenty of folks, including myself, know that there's plenty of blame
to go around for the 9/11 massacre. The obvious failures of the CIA,
FBI, INS, etc. aside, the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
involved with counterterrorism operations.

On 3/1/04 9:01 AM, in article ,
"Mike Marron" wrote:

... the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
involved with counterterrorism operations.

There was no lack of information available to the agencies which had the
direct responsibility for enforcement and apprehension. They simply failed
to follow through on what they already knew.

The USAF has no culpability such as you describe.

Perhaps you should retire to the shop and fiddle with greasy parts.
Disassembly must be your strong point.



Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jack wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

... the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
involved with counterterrorism operations.

There was no lack of information available to the agencies which had the
direct responsibility for enforcement and apprehension. They simply failed
to follow through on what they already knew.

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

The USAF has no culpability such as you describe.

That's just your opinion (and you do know what they say about
opinions?)

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
Jack wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

... the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
involved with counterterrorism operations.

There was no lack of information available to the agencies which had the
direct responsibility for enforcement and apprehension. They simply
failed
to follow through on what they already knew.

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.


Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF, blame
the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,

The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.

blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,

The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.


The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
so far..

blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.


So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight, OK but who do you think
should have ordered airstrikes if not the US Government ?

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,

The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.

The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
so far..

That's because the jury's still out with regards to whose all to blame
for dropping the ball on 9/11. And I'm still curious as to whether or
not our interceptors that were scrambled on 9/11 were armed, or not?

blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight,

Nobody predicted 9/11, but that doesn't mean that many of those
in the know didn't realize that a major terrorist attack was imminent.
I've stated numerous times already that civilians are primarily
responsible for "dropping the ball," however, I simply don't think the
military (that means any branch thereof) deserves a pass when it
comes to doling out the blame.

From: "Keith Willshaw"



"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,

The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.


The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
so far..

blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.


So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight, OK but who do you think
should have ordered airstrikes if not the US Government ?

Keith

Keith, we tried this a couple of months ago. Marron has no idea how the Air
Force functions or what its mission is. If you press him on what we should have
done he has no answers. He just doesn't understand we had no one to
pre-emptively strike nor does he understand the Air Force has no authority to
spy on or bomb anyone they choose. Furthermore he has no comprehension his
claims and attacks on the military in general, USAF in particular, VA, VFW etc
are all baseless. All you will get is personal attacks or comments about RAM is
not a VFW drinking party. He has also not noticed that no one has attacked his
education/training/flying experience or ratings.

A simple google search will prove all this.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On 3/1/04 1:49 PM, in article ,
"Mike Marron" wrote:

The gathering and processing of intelligence never
was a part of my job.

Clearly true.


My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

Which qualifies you to do what exactly (beside comment on the difficulties
of living the life of a bottom feeder in the realm of professional
aviation)?



Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jack wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

The gathering and processing of intelligence never
was a part of my job.

Clearly true.

Nor was it yours, clearly.

My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

Which qualifies you to do what exactly (beside comment on the difficulties
of living the life of a bottom feeder in the realm of professional
aviation)?

Shows how much YOU know about professional aviation (try flight
instructing someday and enjoy having roadkill for dinner every night).
But hey, as bad as it was (and occassionally still is) flying damn
sure beats working for a living!