Does the FAA have written policy WRT landouts?

my experience in 25 or 30 landouts with maybe 5 of them involving
local law enforcement is that they have not called the FAA before they
talk to me. *Even the one who was responding to the 911 call of a
plane crashing south of town came out to investigate the plane crash
first. *Thankfully I got him to call off the volunteer firefighter and
ambulance squad before they showed up. YMMV.

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

Here is the link to NTSB Part 830....

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...4.1.12&idno=49

The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". To me this
doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most
FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation.

"Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation
of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards
the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have
disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury,
or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage."

"Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with
the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety
of operations."

On Dec 22, 8:50*am, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Here is the link to NTSB Part 830....

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...d=2150208c5457....

The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". *To me this
doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most
FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation.

"Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation
of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards
the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have
disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury,
or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage."

"Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with
the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety
of operations."

Another Key definition is:

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the
structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the
aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement
of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an
engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or
cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric,
ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing
gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips
are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.

On Dec 22, 9:02*am, Tony wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:50*am, JohnDeRosa wrote:





Here is the link to NTSB Part 830....

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...d=2150208c5457...

The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". *To me this
doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most
FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation.

"Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation
of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards
the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have
disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury,
or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage."

"Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with
the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety
of operations."

Another Key definition is:

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the
structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the
aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement
of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an
engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or
cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric,
ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing
gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips
are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.

I agree that there isn't much in the "Aircraft Accident" or the
"Substantial Damange" definitions that would point anyone to need to
notify the NTSB if a clean landout occurs.

The gotch catch-all is the "Incident" definition which states
"...affects or could affect the safety of operations.". This is
something that someone MIGHT think applies to any landout. This
sentence basically says we need to predict the future because this
clean landout might affect the next non-clean landout. Huh?

- John

On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
my experience in 25 or 30 landouts with maybe 5 of them involving
local law enforcement is that they have not called the FAA before they
talk to me. *Even the one who was responding to the 911 call of a
plane crashing south of town came out to investigate the plane crash
first. *Thankfully I got him to call off the volunteer firefighter and
ambulance squad before they showed up. YMMV.

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

That will be a sure recipe for having the cops show up. As paranoid as
the law enforcement guys are, that will raise their suspicion and at
least two cruisers will show up. Its like calling in and telling the
operator that no matter what the other callers may say, there is no
bank robbery in progress.
I had the local cops show up one time but after explaining to them
that this is not an emergency but the 'plan B' in the operation of a
glider, they just took some general info and left. They are also your
best bet in finding out who the owner of the field is, if nobody else
can tell you.
But at any rate, I have never heard of a set NTSB or FAA procedure
reporting off-field landings with gliders.

A nearby glider club in Germany had a student pilot land in an old
cemetary knocking over several grave markers and damaging the glider
in the process. Some old lady from across the street called in a plane
crash and mentioned how sorry she was 'for all those dead people'.
Just about every vehicle the city had showed up to rescue the rest.

U. Neumann

On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.



-Evan Ludeman / T8

At 15:18 22 December 2011, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17=A0am, John Cochrane
wrote:

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.



-Evan Ludeman / T8

I have routinely called 911 after landing in a perfectly good airport that
was abandoned and locked. Most of the time they give me the code to the
gate and thats as far as it goes. A few times they send a rep (cop usually)
to open it. And only once (and I didn't even land yet) have the full
brigrade shown up including mercenaries to search , detain and harrass for
awhile till they got there adrenaline fill for the evening. It was pretty
amazing watching 6 ex marines standing around/over Rose with sub machines
guns like she might get away But that is another story

At 15:18 22 December 2011, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17=A0am, John Cochrane
wrote:

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.



-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:29:20 +0000, Cliff Hilty wrote:

And only once (and I didn't even land yet) have the full
brigrade shown up including mercenaries to search , detain and harrass
for awhile till they got there adrenaline fill for the evening. It was
pretty amazing watching 6 ex marines standing around/over Rose with sub
machines guns like she might get away But that is another story

When I was still pre-solo I went to help get an LS-8 out of a field about
20 miles from our airfield. It had landed in a big field behind a village
and, as you might guess, one of the locals had dialled 999 to report a
plane crash. When we arrived the last of the cops etc. had just left. On
rolling up with the trailer and asking a woman how to get into the field,
she told us and then had a small rant about how come a land-out that
wasn't even an emergency could block the main street with an ambulance,
fire engine and two squad cars, but somehow the cops, medics and firemen
were never available for a real emergency.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Dec 22, 7:18*am, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane
wrote:



It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. *They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. *I don't know anyone who has actually done this. *It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. *The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Couple of years ago I landed in a field next to HWY 580 which is a
major hwy. The landout was easily visible form the road, so I figured
sooner or later someone will call 911. So I did exactly as John
suggested, called 911 and explained that there was no emergency, and
indeed no one showed up.
However I also know of a pilot who did not call 911, waited until the
police arrived, and talked them into giving him a ride back...

Ramy