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#1
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![]() my experience in 25 or 30 landouts with maybe 5 of them involving local law enforcement is that they have not called the FAA before they talk to me. *Even the one who was responding to the 911 call of a plane crashing south of town came out to investigate the plane crash first. *Thankfully I got him to call off the volunteer firefighter and ambulance squad before they showed up. YMMV. It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone calls say. John Cochrane |
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Here is the link to NTSB Part 830....
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...4.1.12&idno=49 The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". To me this doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation. "Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage." "Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations." |
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On Dec 22, 8:50*am, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Here is the link to NTSB Part 830.... http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...d=2150208c5457.... The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". *To me this doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation. "Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage." "Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations." Another Key definition is: Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part. |
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On Dec 22, 9:02*am, Tony wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:50*am, JohnDeRosa wrote: Here is the link to NTSB Part 830.... http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...d=2150208c5457... The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". *To me this doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation. "Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage." "Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations." Another Key definition is: Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part. I agree that there isn't much in the "Aircraft Accident" or the "Substantial Damange" definitions that would point anyone to need to notify the NTSB if a clean landout occurs. The gotch catch-all is the "Incident" definition which states "...affects or could affect the safety of operations.". This is something that someone MIGHT think applies to any landout. This sentence basically says we need to predict the future because this clean landout might affect the next non-clean landout. Huh? - John |
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On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane
wrote: my experience in 25 or 30 landouts with maybe 5 of them involving local law enforcement is that they have not called the FAA before they talk to me. *Even the one who was responding to the 911 call of a plane crashing south of town came out to investigate the plane crash first. *Thankfully I got him to call off the volunteer firefighter and ambulance squad before they showed up. YMMV. It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone calls say. John Cochrane That will be a sure recipe for having the cops show up. As paranoid as the law enforcement guys are, that will raise their suspicion and at least two cruisers will show up. Its like calling in and telling the operator that no matter what the other callers may say, there is no bank robbery in progress. I had the local cops show up one time but after explaining to them that this is not an emergency but the 'plan B' in the operation of a glider, they just took some general info and left. They are also your best bet in finding out who the owner of the field is, if nobody else can tell you. But at any rate, I have never heard of a set NTSB or FAA procedure reporting off-field landings with gliders. A nearby glider club in Germany had a student pilot land in an old cemetary knocking over several grave markers and damaging the glider in the process. Some old lady from across the street called in a plane crash and mentioned how sorry she was 'for all those dead people'. Just about every vehicle the city had showed up to rescue the rest. U. Neumann |
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On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane
wrote: It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone calls say. John Cochrane I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club 1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no damage to anything landout was something to behold. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#7
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At 15:18 22 December 2011, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17=A0am, John Cochrane wrote: It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone calls say. John Cochrane I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club 1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no damage to anything landout was something to behold. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#8
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I have routinely called 911 after landing in a perfectly good airport that
was abandoned and locked. Most of the time they give me the code to the gate and thats as far as it goes. A few times they send a rep (cop usually) to open it. And only once (and I didn't even land yet) have the full brigrade shown up including mercenaries to search , detain and harrass for awhile till they got there adrenaline fill for the evening. It was pretty amazing watching 6 ex marines standing around/over Rose with sub machines guns like she might get away ![]() ![]() At 15:18 22 December 2011, T8 wrote: On Dec 22, 9:17=A0am, John Cochrane wrote: It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone calls say. John Cochrane I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club 1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no damage to anything landout was something to behold. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#9
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On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:29:20 +0000, Cliff Hilty wrote:
And only once (and I didn't even land yet) have the full brigrade shown up including mercenaries to search , detain and harrass for awhile till they got there adrenaline fill for the evening. It was pretty amazing watching 6 ex marines standing around/over Rose with sub machines guns like she might get away ![]() ![]() When I was still pre-solo I went to help get an LS-8 out of a field about 20 miles from our airfield. It had landed in a big field behind a village and, as you might guess, one of the locals had dialled 999 to report a plane crash. When we arrived the last of the cops etc. had just left. On rolling up with the trailer and asking a woman how to get into the field, she told us and then had a small rant about how come a land-out that wasn't even an emergency could block the main street with an ambulance, fire engine and two squad cars, but somehow the cops, medics and firemen were never available for a real emergency. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#10
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On Dec 22, 7:18*am, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane wrote: It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone calls say. John Cochrane I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club 1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police cruisers, etc. etc. *They did say we could feel free to call 911 as you suggest. *I don't know anyone who has actually done this. *It's hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably worth a try. *The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no damage to anything landout was something to behold. -Evan Ludeman / T8 Couple of years ago I landed in a field next to HWY 580 which is a major hwy. The landout was easily visible form the road, so I figured sooner or later someone will call 911. So I did exactly as John suggested, called 911 and explained that there was no emergency, and indeed no one showed up. However I also know of a pilot who did not call 911, waited until the police arrived, and talked them into giving him a ride back... Ramy |
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