Rumsfeld and flying

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.

Go see if your welfare check has come in yet, and also ask the nurse for
a larger dose.

Good Luck!

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 3/6/04 10:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: cJo2c.10293$m4.2072@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

WOW ! I'm really impressed. A trained skilled pilot who during a shooting
war
got out of all combat commitments. Now that is what I call skill.

Go see if your welfare check has come in yet, and also ask the nurse for
a larger dose.

Good Luck!


This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't. And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Now I'll ask the nurse for a larger dose and thanks for your good luck
wishes.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

This is a very emotional issue for me.

Obviously your emotions have overtaken your other bodily functions.

I think of absent friends who still lie in foreign graves.

Should have shipped them home. Most would have died on Route 66
anyway, as we didn't have seat belts back then.

Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't.

Rumsfeld ain't one of them. He was a Congressman, not a combat pilot.

And no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers
of men were equal

Rumsfeld wasn't a pilot during his Reserve Duty. I don't think he's flown
an aircraft since 1954.

On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't. And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 3/6/04 12:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who still
lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't.
And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

I thought we were talking about flying but I see it is now a purely a political
issue.
and therefore of far less interest. I never leveled any personal insults
against you as you are now against me. Lets let it go at that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

I thought we were talking about flying but I see it is now a purely a political
issue.
and therefore of far less interest. I never leveled any personal insults
against you as you are now against me. Lets let it go at that.

Arthur Kramer


It seems to me that you have been talking about combat. You certainly
have pointedly separated flying from combat throughout this thread.

I gather your position is that the U.S. should go to war at least once
every generation so that the brave can be distinguished from the rest.

I take that if you had been ORDERED to a non-combat aircrew postion you
would have refused the lawful order of your superiors?


Dave

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who
still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and didn't.
And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men
were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Not that I'm a big fan of Kerry, I don't believe voicing one's opinion
against and unjust war where over 50,000 of our brothers died is giving "aid
and comfort to the enemy" Jane Fonda he "ain't"Not even close...........


T3

"T3" wrote in message
. com...

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 06 Mar 2004 18:38:56 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

This is a very emotional issue for me. I think of absent friends who
still lie
in foreign graves. Then I think of those who could have gone and
didn't.
And
no amount of discussion will convince me that these two calibers of men
were
equal

Arthur Kramer

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way. Which doesn't even
begin to address the several hundred who were languishing in NVN
prison camps while he gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

Don't play the lost comrades card with me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Not that I'm a big fan of Kerry, I don't believe voicing one's opinion
against and unjust war where over 50,000 of our brothers died is giving
"aid
and comfort to the enemy" Jane Fonda he "ain't"Not even close...........

He did not just voice his opinion. He presented testimony to congress
(written not by him but by a former speechwriter for RFK named Adam
Walinski) which parroted the since-discredited offal that came form the
"Winter Soldier Investigation", which he had attended and which was indeed
sponsored by Ms. Fonda. Suggest you read the pertinent passages from B.G.
Burkett's "Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes
and its History" regarding Mr. Kerry and his committment to the antiwar
cause. Burkett wrote this book in 1998, long before Mr. Kerry became a
presidential candidate, and he only discusses him in passing (the book
concentrates more on revealing those who created fake Vietnam war records
for themselves and dispelling a lot of popular myths about Vietnam
veterans). He notes that friends of Mr. Kerry did not notice him as being
particularly disturbed by his (short) combat tour, or that he was
particularly anti-war--but one did note that he was "a very charismatic
fellow looking for a good issue." How much of his anti-Vietnam sentiment was
heartfelt and how much was a product of his desire to gain publicity to
support his political ambitions is the question for which we have no answer.

Brooks



T3

Ed Rasimus wrote:

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way.

Ed, I have a concern here. It may be that I misunderstand you, so please
don't take this personally.

It's often been said that people who didn't fight in Vietnam didn't have the
credibility to criticize the war. Now you suggest that those who did fight
aren't supposed to be critical either because it's disloyal. How then is
anyone allowed to oppose a war that they believe to be unjust? Surely we
have to have some way to do that or we suffer badly as a democratic society.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 13:28:58 GMT, "Thomas Schoene"
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

And, yet you don't seem to respect the opinion of those of us who
served in SEA that the actions of Lt John F. Kerry after his
exceptionally brief service were to the detriment of half a million of
his brothers in arms who were still in harms way.

Ed, I have a concern here. It may be that I misunderstand you, so please
don't take this personally.

It's often been said that people who didn't fight in Vietnam didn't have the
credibility to criticize the war. Now you suggest that those who did fight
aren't supposed to be critical either because it's disloyal. How then is
anyone allowed to oppose a war that they believe to be unjust? Surely we
have to have some way to do that or we suffer badly as a democratic society.

A legitimate question. My problem is that once you don the uniform and
swear the oath, you forfeit your first amendment (and most other)
rights. A commissioned officer is obligate to obey the lawful orders
of those place over him. Once commissioned, even after leaving active
duty, you are still a commissioned officer subject to recall. You
still have the obligations.

When Kerry left his crew after only four months in theater, he
jeopardized them. When he testified before the US Senate (in that odd
combination of rumpled fatiques and battle ribbons) that atrocities
were the order of the day throughout the theater, he lied about it and
simultaneously indicated that he failed to fulfill his obligations as
an officer to terminate such activities if he had witnessed them. He
defamed all of us.

When he protested with his bearded friends on the Marine Memorial,
displaying the inverted US flag, he violated his loyalty to the Navy
and the Corps. When he provided aid and comfort to the North
Vietnamese by demeaning the American military deployed in combat
against them, he went way too far for a citizen, and reached the
unforgivable for a military officer.

The essential issue is that once you choose the course of military
service (which he claims he did as a patriot), you then are being a
hypocrite if you later reverse course quite clearly for political
gain. The sensationalist actions and inflammatory rhetoric which he
engaged in after his return from brief service is certainly not
effective political debate. It is demagogic posturing.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8