Rumsfeld and flying

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Pete"
Date: 3/6/04 9:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: wLy2c.2040$iy.1385@fe2

You don't always get to choose/volunteer, and the needs of the military
outweigh...

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for. The Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for. Maybe some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they
volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for. The
Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for. Maybe
some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?

Not in the situation I laid, out, no. Higher HQ says go, you go. If they say
stay here and do other stuff, that's what you do. You follow orders. There
is no AF Form or procedure called "I want to go" except for going on active
duty in the first place.

The wing in question was the only one in USAFE to not send any
jets/pilots/maintainers. There was no question of 'volunteering'. We were
already on active duty. And we *all* wanted to go.

Similarly, not everyone on active duty during Vietnam saw action in SEA.
There was still a mission several thousand miles away in
Germany/England/Holland/Korea/Japan to handle.

Pete

"Pete" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they
volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for.
The
Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for.
Maybe
some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?

Not in the situation I laid, out, no. Higher HQ says go, you go. If they
say
stay here and do other stuff, that's what you do. You follow orders. There
is no AF Form or procedure called "I want to go" except for going on
active
duty in the first place.

The wing in question was the only one in USAFE to not send any
jets/pilots/maintainers. There was no question of 'volunteering'. We were
already on active duty. And we *all* wanted to go.

Similarly, not everyone on active duty during Vietnam saw action in SEA.
There was still a mission several thousand miles away in
Germany/England/Holland/Korea/Japan to handle.

Pete


There was a running joke in the '60's about a guy who got naked with only an
American flag who went down to the draft office and wanted to sign up for
duty in VN, they took one look at him and said
your f'ing crazy, to which he said write it down!!

T3

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "T3"
Date: 3/7/04 5:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: m


"Pete" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they
volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for.
The
Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for.
Maybe
some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?

Not in the situation I laid, out, no. Higher HQ says go, you go. If they
say
stay here and do other stuff, that's what you do. You follow orders. There
is no AF Form or procedure called "I want to go" except for going on
active
duty in the first place.

The wing in question was the only one in USAFE to not send any
jets/pilots/maintainers. There was no question of 'volunteering'. We were
already on active duty. And we *all* wanted to go.

Similarly, not everyone on active duty during Vietnam saw action in SEA.
There was still a mission several thousand miles away in
Germany/England/Holland/Korea/Japan to handle.

Pete


There was a running joke in the '60's about a guy who got naked with only an
American flag who went down to the draft office and wanted to sign up for
duty in VN, they took one look at him and said
your f'ing crazy, to which he said write it down!!

T3

THINGS SAID IN JEST..........



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Pete"
Date: 3/6/04 9:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: wLy2c.2040$iy.1385@fe2

You don't always get to choose/volunteer, and the needs of the military
outweigh...

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they
volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for. The
Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for. Maybe
some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?


Arthur Kramer

Here's a thread within the thread that you may just be ill informed about
Art, since it's been 50+ years since you've been in the military. There's
no "volunteering" to go to war in the USAF. You go where your unit is
ordered to go. As a pilot, there's almost no chance to cross train into an
aircraft that is flying in a war from one that is not. Take this for the
truth it is from someone who served 20 years on active duty and missed DS
because his aircraft wasn't involved. There was no where I could go to
volunteer, no form I could fill out, to get into that war. Now, if the war
goes on for 5-6 years, you might have a chance...but we've not had one of
those in 30+ years, much longer than the normal AF career. So reevaluate
your thoughts on this concept you have that only slackers/cowards don't get
into a war...it's incorrect for 30+ years for all instances other than wars
lasting many years.

JB
Bomber Pilot (ret)

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Jim Baker"
Date: 3/7/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Pete"
Date: 3/6/04 9:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: wLy2c.2040$iy.1385@fe2

You don't always get to choose/volunteer, and the needs of the military
outweigh...

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they
volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for. The
Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for. Maybe
some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?


Arthur Kramer

Here's a thread within the thread that you may just be ill informed about
Art, since it's been 50+ years since you've been in the military. There's
no "volunteering" to go to war in the USAF. You go where your unit is
ordered to go. As a pilot, there's almost no chance to cross train into an
aircraft that is flying in a war from one that is not. Take this for the
truth it is from someone who served 20 years on active duty and missed DS
because his aircraft wasn't involved. There was no where I could go to
volunteer, no form I could fill out, to get into that war. Now, if the war
goes on for 5-6 years, you might have a chance...but we've not had one of
those in 30+ years, much longer than the normal AF career. So reevaluate
your thoughts on this concept you have that only slackers/cowards don't get
into a war...it's incorrect for 30+ years for all instances other than wars
lasting many years.

JB
Bomber Pilot (ret)




That is the first rational post on the subject yet. Thanks. What did you fly?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

JB
Bomber Pilot (ret)

That is the first rational post on the subject yet. Thanks. What did you
fly?

Have some respect Art, Baker is a retired B-one operator. He has posted
here for years and you should be able to remember the aircrew here at ram.
One of those that kept the airplane flying until it could be made to work.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Jim Baker"
Date: 3/7/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Pete"
Date: 3/6/04 9:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: wLy2c.2040$iy.1385@fe2

You don't always get to choose/volunteer, and the needs of the
military
outweigh...

The Marines who stormed the beaches of the pacific got what they
volunteered
for., The airborne that held Bastogne got what they volunteered for.
The
Air
Corps that took devastating losses over Berlin and Ploesti got what
they
volunteered for., The Suubmariners got what they volunteered for.
Maybe
some
of those who didn't volunteer didn't try hard enough. Think that is a
possibility?


Arthur Kramer

Here's a thread within the thread that you may just be ill informed about
Art, since it's been 50+ years since you've been in the military.
There's
no "volunteering" to go to war in the USAF. You go where your unit is
ordered to go. As a pilot, there's almost no chance to cross train into
an
aircraft that is flying in a war from one that is not. Take this for the
truth it is from someone who served 20 years on active duty and missed DS
because his aircraft wasn't involved. There was no where I could go to
volunteer, no form I could fill out, to get into that war. Now, if the
war
goes on for 5-6 years, you might have a chance...but we've not had one of
those in 30+ years, much longer than the normal AF career. So reevaluate
your thoughts on this concept you have that only slackers/cowards don't
get
into a war...it's incorrect for 30+ years for all instances other than
wars
lasting many years.

JB
Bomber Pilot (ret)




That is the first rational post on the subject yet. Thanks. What did you
fly?


Arthur Kramer

Just back from a drive down the coast. What a beautiful day in SoCal.

I flew T-38s, B-52s and B-1Bs.

Another thing I noticed in your posts Art. You have a problem with
Instructor Pilots who haven't been to war. In the USAF of the mid '70s on,
there were a ton of First Assignment IPs. I mean most of them were FAIPs.
These FAIPs, and all the other flying instructors, weren't teaching mission
flying, they were teaching get-your-wings-flying. There were a few in the
squadron that had been in SEA, and I flew with most of them. Guess what,
they didn't fly any better than the FAIPs (after some time, of course). The
skill and savy they'd picked up in combat wasn't what was being taught in
UPT. They had good stories to tell, but everyone as an IP had to teach to
the standards in the syllabus, so their studs could pass their checkride,
and none of that involved air-air combat or IP to target flying. It
involved learning to fly precise formation and instruments. The IPs that
had SEA experience were better off being sent to FTUs, as many of them were,
where mission qual training was being conducted. But, as I said, it didn't
matter a wit in UPT and I'm sure most non-FAIP, UPT IPs would generally
agree. Of course, we all hated being FAIPs, we wanted to get out into the
real world. But, c,est la guerre! (sp?)

JB

Subject: Rumsfeld and flying
From: "Jim Baker"
Date: 3/7/04 3:38 PM Pacific Standard Time

nother thing I noticed in your posts Art. You have a problem with
Instructor Pilots who haven't been to war. In the USAF of the mid '70s on,

I have no problem with them at all. But their students might. That is what my
question was about. I was a bombardier navigator (MOS 1035). Pilot training is
totaly out of my expertise.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:01:57 -0800, Jim Baker wrote:

Here's a thread within the thread that you may just be ill informed about
Art, since it's been 50+ years since you've been in the military. There's
no "volunteering" to go to war in the USAF. You go where your unit is
ordered to go. As a pilot, there's almost no chance to cross train into an
aircraft that is flying in a war from one that is not. Take this for the
truth it is from someone who served 20 years on active duty and missed DS
because his aircraft wasn't involved. There was no where I could go to
volunteer, no form I could fill out, to get into that war. Now, if the war
goes on for 5-6 years, you might have a chance...but we've not had one of
those in 30+ years, much longer than the normal AF career. So reevaluate
your thoughts on this concept you have that only slackers/cowards don't get
into a war...it's incorrect for 30+ years for all instances other than wars
lasting many years.

I was stationed at Clark AB in the PI when the Desert Shield deployments
started. I was working a swing one evening when we got a message that our
command (Electronic Security Command) was calling for volunteers in my
career field (Signals Intelligence Analyst).

I was newly married and had a baby but I *really* wanted to be part of what
was going on. I thought about it for awhile and finally told my
Surveillance & Warning Center Supervisor and my Flight Commander that I'd
be talking with my wife that evening but I was sure I would be volunteering
for the deployment. Neither of them had any objections and they both shook
my hand and wished me luck. That night I talked with my wife and she
didn't object.

The next day I came into work early to give myself time to talk to whomever
it was I needed to talk to about getting sent to Saudi. By then our unit
commander had seen the message asking for volunteers, had gotten a slew of
people asking to sign up, and had made a few phone calls. It turned out
that people in my unit were *forbidden* to volunteer for Desert Shield.

Here's what happened: When the Desert Shield deployments first started
there was a lot of talk in the news about how the personnel in Saudi would
be receiving Hostile Fire Pay. This made the Admiral at PACOM a bit upset
since all of his personnel in the Philippines were living under severe
restrictions because of the serious terrorist threat. He reportedly talked
to some Congressmen (that's the story - I don't know if it really happened)
who decided that we in the PI were getting killed off more often than the
people in Saudi Arabia (11 Americans were killed by the New Peoples Army
during my tour there) and that we deserved HFP also.

Once we started getting the money we were technically in a war zone, and
you aren't allowed to deploy from a war zone in one theater (PACOM) to a
war zone in another (CENTCOM).

The United States was building up for a war on the Arabian Peninsula and
those of us stationed in the Philippines were forbidden from playing.

In Art's world I should have done something (anything) like being
cross-trained to a new career field to get to the war. In the real world
my AFSC was critically manned so none of us were allowed to cross-train.
Desert Storm came and I had to sit that one out.

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com