Attention US Standard Class Pilots

On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote:
Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

On Feb 10, 9:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

"Won by span and wingloading" is Tom Knauff's statement. It is true
that in very weak weather span plays a big role (e.g. Elmira a few
years ago). The Seniors seems to have more consistent conditions.
QT

On Feb 10, 8:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

LOL Dollar Loading, you owe me a new keyboard John!

John,

I was addressing Tom Knauff's comments. My horses have been in the
barn for years. The sports nationals have been won by a Nimbus 3, a
1-34, and everything in between. It is not what you fly but how you
fly it. Our honorable sport seems to be under threat from pilots that
reason away entering competition. Unless you are losing the 15m
nationals by 3% in your LS6, your glider is not your real handicap,
you are. Racing is fun and educational no matter your final placing.

Rick Walters

On Feb 10, 6:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

On Feb 10, 8:20*am, Rick Walters wrote:
John,

I was addressing Tom Knauff's comments. My horses have been in the
barn for years. The sports nationals have been won by a Nimbus 3, a
1-34, and everything in between. It is not what you fly but how you
fly it. Our honorable sport seems to be under threat from pilots that
reason away entering competition. Unless you are losing the 15m
nationals by 3% in your LS6, your glider is not your real handicap,
you are. Racing is fun and educational no matter your final placing.

Rick Walters

On Feb 10, 6:53*am, John Cochrane
wrote:







On Feb 10, 8:46*am, Rick Walters wrote: Tom,

Unless I am unaware of different handicaps used at the Senior
Championships, how can the Seniors be considered a level playing
field, yet the Sports class is won by span and wingloading?

Richard Walters

Hold your horses there a moment, Rick! "Sports class is won by span
and wingloading??" That's how Tim Mcalester won in a Libelle, and Dave
Stephenson won in a Foka? And the poor Nimbuses never can seem to
overcome their huge handicaps? Open class is won by span and
wingloading and dollar-loading maybe. Sports class is won by pilots.
John Cochrane

For once I agree with John Cochrane - differences in pilot skills are
likely to outweigh any small differences in sailplane handicap. I
have a very fine sailplane, but consistently fly 5% to 10% slower than
my better colleagues. The only effect the proposed rule might have is
to encourage participants who might have been discouraged by a
perceived handicap disadvantage.

My suggestion to handicap pilots (like we do horses in races) has been
universally laughed at!

Mike

Mike the Strike wrote:
My suggestion to handicap pilots (like we do horses in races) has been
universally laughed at!

Mike, that's a good idea, IMO. You don't see golf clubs handicapped,
but rather the golfer, even at the highest level of the game.

-John

On Feb 10, 9:58*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
SNIP

For once I agree with John Cochrane - differences in pilot skills are
likely to outweigh any small differences in sailplane handicap. *I
have a very fine sailplane, but consistently fly 5% to 10% slower than
my better colleagues. *The only effect the proposed rule might have is
to encourage participants who might have been discouraged by a
perceived handicap disadvantage.

My suggestion to handicap pilots (like we do horses in races) has been
universally laughed at!

Mike

I am very encouraged by the civility and thoughtfulness of this
conversation.

Mike:
I just do not see how handicapping the pilot would ever work out in
our sport, especially with handicapped (gliders, as exists now)
classes. Maybe I just don't see the light.

If we handicapped pilots instead of gliders, then even the "best"
pilots, in any older glider, MUST to fly very well/brilliantly EVERY
DAY to make up for any lack of performance in handicapped racing (i.e.
Sports, Club, etc.). Do Gary Ittner, Ran Tabery, Karl Streideck, Bill
Reuhle, etc. always read the weather, the terrain, the "air" correctly
100% of the time? So then if they make a mistake or two, they then
have to come up with perfection beyond what is even their typical
greatness delivers to make up for what the glider will not give them.
Or is the implication that the "best" pilots would never be caught
competing in anything less than the most current generation equipment?
Or is the implication that a Karl Streideck, for example, in a ASW-27
would tie a Karl Streideck in an ASW-20 and Karl Streideck in an
ASW-15 each and everyday of competition? everywhere in the US?

Don't they reasonably handicap golfers because the course, the clubs,
and pretty much everything except gusts of wind and are the same for
everyone, each and every day. The difference is inthe golders stregth,
fitness, "eye", etc. Is flying different models of gliders in a very
dynamic environment in any way analogous to golfing? Can I make my
older glider better than it is in reality by anything I do other than
possibly my decisionmaking?

As an aside, does anyone know how or if auto racing numerically
handicaps either cars or drivers in auto racing? I believe they only
handicap by weight and power output (all things to do with the car -
not the driver)

Maybe we should be looking at making the current glider handicapping
regime better. Especially in this age of data loggers and computer
scoring, isn't it just a matter of writing code to crunch the abundant
data we have at hand each day? (Flame shield on - I am NOT a computer
guy). Why for example do we not adjust glider handicaps for the
achieved average climb rate on each particular contest day like they
do in S Africa (and other places - I believe)? Throw in windicapping
and I would think that we would have a VERY refined handicap system
that sought to eliminate the most dynamic part of our sport (the
weather) from the performance equalization equation. Then let the
pilots go at it and actually see whop the better pilot is in real word
flying, rather than assiging a pilot a handicap.

Handicapping the tools of the trade seems like a more realistic way to
promote handicap competition.

AND...

.... to other "Haters" of giving a handicapped Standard Class at US
Nationals:

If the current handicap system is "perfectly fine" for purposes of
equalizing (not necessarily perfectly) competition performance in
Sports Class, as I have often heard. Where is the harm in extending it
to Standard Class in an attempt to get participation up and make for
better racing? And if the idea of letting the Std guys to fly in 18m
Class with a completely random 4% bump will make for "fair" and
"equalized" racing, then why the heck would the idea of handicapping
gliders of like span, like wing-geometry, and restricted to adjoining
generations of said gliders, be such an abomination???

Standard class, while very much like, but not exactly like 15m Class,
is a class worth keeping good racing going in if the itnerest is
there. It is dynamic at the international level, and there sure are a
lot of new AND last generation standard class ships here in the US.

We need to be looking very carefully at promoting "equal opportunity
racing", within defined performance ranges, for everyone who wants to
particpate, rather than arbitrarily drawing lines in the sand and
axing classes that do not suit our personal competitive values.

Thank you RC for taking this step to see if close range/generation
handicapping can revitalize Standard Class here in the US!

Tim McAllister EY

Let's not start the old sports class and 1-26 vs. nimbus 4 debate.

The proposal is to allow a small range of handicaps within standard
class.

Most of the "club class didn't get home on day x" stories, or the
similar "nimbus 4 couldn't get through the big blue hole that ka6
didn't have to cross" stories involve gliders of very different
performance range flying together, in the very rough-and-ready system
of sports class.

That is largely addressed in club class, in the mixed FAI regional
classes, and in the standard class proposal, by having races in which
gliders of very similar performance fly together with handicaps.

That does not mean this is an easy decision. Handicaps add noise, even
if just a little noise and a 3% handicap range. Some pilots might try
the strategy of sticking with the gaggle and winning on handicap.
Pilots who made a big investment in a new glider find that investment
doesn't pay off. Balancing the pilots who want to fly given the new
handicap for their older gliders are pilots who may not fly because
they don't like the whole handicap thing. There is a chance that a guy
in an LS4 can win the standard nationals and get sent to the worlds.

I like the handicap proposal, because I don't see a way out of our
participation decline. The alternative may be canceling nationals hwen
not enough pilots show up. And this has been a great discussion.

But let's keep it on point and not go back and revisit sports class.

On Feb 10, 9:25*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
Let's not start the old sports class and 1-26 vs. nimbus 4 debate.

The proposal is to allow a small range of handicaps within standard
class.

Most of the "club class didn't get home on day x" stories, or the
similar "nimbus 4 couldn't get through the big blue hole that ka6
didn't have to cross" stories involve gliders of very different
performance range flying together, in the very rough-and-ready system
of sports class.

That is largely addressed in club class, in the mixed FAI regional
classes, and in the standard class proposal, by having races in which
gliders of very similar performance fly together with handicaps.

That does not mean this is an easy decision. Handicaps add noise, even
if just a little noise and a 3% handicap range. Some pilots might try
the strategy of sticking with the gaggle and winning on handicap.
Pilots who made a big investment in a new glider find that investment
doesn't pay off. Balancing the pilots who want to fly given the new
handicap for their older gliders are pilots who may not fly because
they don't like the whole handicap thing. There is a chance that a guy
in an LS4 can win the standard nationals and get sent to the worlds.

I like the handicap proposal, because I don't see a way out of our
participation decline. The alternative may be canceling nationals hwen
not enough pilots show up. And this has been a great discussion.

But let's keep it on point and not go back and revisit sports class.

I was wondering if the following has been considered?: Allow any
Standard Class glider to enter the Standard Class Nationals. Use a
Handicap system to level the playing field so that that Nationals
would be a true test of the skill of the pilot. Then used the non-
handicapped results to select the Team Members for the World
Championships. This approach would allow many more pilots and many
more sailplanes to participate and have a chance at becoming the U.S.
National Champion AND still ensure that the U.S. Team would consist of
the best Pilot/Sailplane that would allow the Team to be competitive
on the World stage. Just a thought from a dummy that doesn't even have
an A Badge.

I certainly don't have a problem with what's proposed below. As I
said in my earlier post - a lot of the questions about Nationals
revolves around the intended _goal_ of the contest. What's more
important: Trying to find the best pilot? The pilot who can fly top
equipment the best? The pilot most likely to win in a WGC (and
therefore should be selected to the US team)? There's not necessarily
a wrong answer; but consensus is needed in order to adjust the contest
appropriately.

So far, the consensus appears to be that increased participation and
an attempt to compare pilot skill (regardless of equipment, to a
limited degree) are a higher priority than some of these other factors
I've mentioned. As the potential beneficiary of any handicapping, I'm
totally happy with that. ;-D

--Noel
P.S. Sorry John, you posted your admonishment while I was typing up
my novel - if I'd seen your post I would've skipped that huge
explanation and left well enough alone!


On Feb 10, 6:36*pm, wrote:

I was wondering if the following has been considered?: Allow any
Standard Class glider to enter the Standard Class Nationals. Use a
Handicap system to level the playing field so that that Nationals
would be a true test of the skill of the pilot. Then used the non-
handicapped results to select the Team Members for the World
Championships.