New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 13, 3:22*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Brad -

Here's the catch though: *You'd still be illegal to fly because you
use LK8000 or XCSoar. *Since they have AH functions that you cannot
"safety-wire" in the off position, you can't use them. *Sorry! No
contest-flying for you! *Not until you buy a dedicated flight computer
for a couple-thousand-dollars! *Oh, and if you buy a nice cell-phone,
you cannot fly with it. *Sorry, gotta hike to a farmer's house in the
middle of nowhere to make a call and get retrieved!

How do these things improve safety or help increase participation?
They don't - THAT'S the insanity of this rule. *Its much, much larger
than the half-dozen idiots in the country who'd kill themselves trying
to cloud-fly simply because they have an AH in the cockpit.

The sport and its rule-makers _must_ adjust to modern realities or the
sport is going to continue to die. *In some ways they're doing great
things; but in others they're falling flat on their face. *Adjusting
to modern society _doesn't_ mean you have to support million-dollar
thermal-detectors; but it _does_ mean the application of common-
sense!! *Skew the rules towards the greater common good; _don't_ skew
the rules and everyone's equipment out of fear that a teeny fraction
of individuals will cheat.

Anyone willing to cheat to cloud-fly is also willing to be a big dick
at their next contest and protest everyone who flies with a smart-
phone. *I'd LOVE to see the fallout from *that* event!

--Noel

XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:01:01 -0800, Mike wrote:

On Feb 13, 3:22Â*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Brad -

Here's the catch though: Â*You'd still be illegal to fly because you use
LK8000 or XCSoar. Â*Since they have AH functions that you cannot
"safety-wire" in the off position, you can't use them. Â*Sorry! No
contest-flying for you! Â*Not until you buy a dedicated flight computer
for a couple-thousand-dollars! Â*Oh, and if you buy a nice cell-phone,
you cannot fly with it. Â*Sorry, gotta hike to a farmer's house in the
middle of nowhere to make a call and get retrieved!

How do these things improve safety or help increase participation? They
don't - THAT'S the insanity of this rule. Â*Its much, much larger than
the half-dozen idiots in the country who'd kill themselves trying to
cloud-fly simply because they have an AH in the cockpit.

The sport and its rule-makers _must_ adjust to modern realities or the
sport is going to continue to die. Â*In some ways they're doing great
things; but in others they're falling flat on their face. Â*Adjusting to
modern society _doesn't_ mean you have to support million-dollar
thermal-detectors; but it _does_ mean the application of common-
sense!! Â*Skew the rules towards the greater common good; _don't_ skew
the rules and everyone's equipment out of fear that a teeny fraction of
individuals will cheat.

Anyone willing to cheat to cloud-fly is also willing to be a big dick
at their next contest and protest everyone who flies with a smart-
phone. Â*I'd LOVE to see the fallout from *that* event!

--Noel

XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Same comment from me re LK8000.

From a cloud flying POV it does nothing that's not duplicated by a
compass.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...nderer.cpp#n35

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

On Feb 14, 2:08*am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo....

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

I want to point out that the rule against artificial horizons et al is
not just a USA rule. From the FAI Sporting Code which governs most non-
US contests (and the upcoming WGC in Uvalde):
"No instruments permitting pilots to fly without visual reference
to the ground may be carried on board,
even if made unserviceable."

As Eric pointed out, this rule has been in force for decades and it
did not just appear at random. It was found over time that it was more
of a benefit to safety than a detriment. Make your own conclusion
about the willingness of competitors to cloud-fly.

QT

On 14 helmi, 09:08, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo....

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

GPS derived "artificial horizon" is not enough to keep your wings
level when IMC. GPS system is very good for checking your bearing when
flying straight and level, better than compass, but to control glider
in choppy IMC requires either gyro (T&B or horizon) or AHRS system. I
do cloudflying with my glider all the time, and believe me it's
something you don't wan't to try out without proper training and
instruments. It's a lot of fun, if sometimes a bit too exciting, BTW.

I'm actually one of those who will get Butterfly vario because of the
AH feature. I believe that cloud flying in contests was last tried at
Vrsac WGC in 1972. It was very bad idea then, as it's now. There was
two pilots who parachuted to safety after IMC collision.

On Feb 14, 12:08*am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo....

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

Hi,

The LX8000 and LX9000 use an AHRS sensor box with built in g-meters, etc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-AHRS

Paul Remde

"Mike" wrote in message
...
On Feb 14, 12:08 am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo...

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

On Feb 14, 2:15*pm, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi,

The LX8000 and LX9000 use an AHRS sensor box with built in g-meters, etc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-AHRS

Paul Remde

"Mike" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 12:08 am, Max Kellermann wrote:







Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo...

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

*Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

Thanks for the explanation Paul. I meant LK8000. Pesky laptop
keyboards and poor detail to editing...

On Feb 14, 4:15*pm, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi,

The LX8000 and LX9000 use an AHRS sensor box with built in g-meters, etc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-AHRS

Paul Remde

"Mike" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 12:08 am, Max Kellermann wrote:



Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo...

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

*Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Paul:
As in my warning about Butterfly, you and other vendors should ensure
that the pilots buying the devices from you that are represented to
have A/H functionality, know that these devices are not permitted
under current and future SSA competition rules.
Notwithstanding the disagreement by a vocal few, this policy is not
going to change any time soon.
It would be a big service to your customers to ensure that they are
informed and an even bigger service if you make a point of ensuring
that your suppliers know that there is a clarification of policy in
effect and a methodology for compliance.
There is adequate time before the majority of the contest season to
get this accomplished.
If there is a question about whether a product falls into this
catagory, the RC will work hard to give you a determination.
I guess Richard, Rex?,and Tim and I don't know who else would also be
well to heed this suggestion.
I don't think you want to be getting the angry call from your customer
on contest practice day that you sold him an instrument he can't use.
Thanks for you cooperation and service to the contest community.
UH
RC Chair

In article writes:

Paul:
As in my warning about Butterfly, you and other vendors should ensure
that the pilots buying the devices from you that are represented to
have A/H functionality, know that these devices are not permitted
under current and future SSA competition rules.
Notwithstanding the disagreement by a vocal few, this policy is not
going to change any time soon.
It would be a big service to your customers to ensure that they are
informed and an even bigger service if you make a point of ensuring
that your suppliers know that there is a clarification of policy in
effect and a methodology for compliance.
There is adequate time before the majority of the contest season to
get this accomplished.
If there is a question about whether a product falls into this
catagory, the RC will work hard to give you a determination.
I guess Richard, Rex?,and Tim and I don't know who else would also be
well to heed this suggestion.
I don't think you want to be getting the angry call from your customer
on contest practice day that you sold him an instrument he can't use.
Thanks for you cooperation and service to the contest community.
UH
RC Chair


As an alternative, hopefully pilots will refuse to particiapte in
activities that prohibit devices that enhance safety.


Alan