New Butterfly Vario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE0aO...e_gdata_player

2:20 into the video.

This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

15 pages and 146 messages...interesting.

It makes me wonder about other times when technological advancement has reared its head in the soaring world...was the outcry this loud?

Was there this much noise when GPS replaced map and compass? Data loggers vs. TP pix? Radios? Varios? Carbon fiber vs. Glass vs. Wood vs. Fabric? Ballasting vs. Dry? And on and on....technology marches on, and you can only delay its implementation, not prevent it.

There will come a day when ALL soaring computers will have this technology installed and available. What then? Outlaw them all and we go back to charts and cameras?

To me, this is an opportunity for policy-makers to get in front of this technology wave by acknowledging change is coming AND trying to direct that fact in a way that grows the sport and enhances safety.

As a high-time power pilot and 25 year airline guy, I understand as well as anyone that inadvertent IFR or getting caught over a solid cloud deck can happen in this sport (as it can in any type of GA) and a strong consideration for me had been to find a system that wouldn't make something like that kill me.

It blows my mind that an attitude exists in competition soaring that because a small minority of competition pilots will cheat, the other 99% will have to carry the burden of their lack of integrity by disabling an obvious safety feature. May I respectfully submit that the small minority, by their actions, will make themselves stand out in short order? Allowing the RC or other enforcement agencies to then concentrate their energies on correcting the behavior of the miscreants? Why do the folks who follow the rules and now find themselves in a tight spot have to pay the freight for the ne'er-do-wells?

I have to admit, as a yet-to-fly-a-contest-but-strongly-considering-it newbie, this entire approach towards this technology troubles me, especially as someone who has had more than my fair share of hard IFR, planned and unplanned. If that's the final iteration of this rule, then I have to say I'm not pulling out a gauge or disabling a feature just so I can fly in the contest-world...there are other areas of soaring that hold my interest as well where I can fully participate and not have to do so....Which is a shame, because I'd heard they needed guys like me to keep soaring comps from becoming even more endangered or less frequented than they already are. Sean, I think you're on the right track to promote this technology, and I support your position.

My 2 cents...

Rob S.

ZAP

On 2/15/2012 2:33 PM, RAS56 wrote:
It blows my mind that an attitude exists in competition soaring that
because a small minority of competition pilots will cheat, the other 99%
will have to carry the burden of their lack of integrity by disabling an
obvious safety feature.

We've had this rule for at least 35 years, and this is the first time I
can remember a discussion over it. Really, in USA contests, it is NOT
"an obvious safety feature". Obviously, some people wish to have it, and
people with a lot of power time seem feel naked without it, but it would
not have prevented a single fatality in the 35+ years I've been in the
sport.

We seem to be down to "I want it because I want it", not because there
are any cases to point to where it would have helped. That's not
inherently a bad reason, so maybe we should talk about how to allow the
"emergency" use of all these devices, while still discouraging it by
some inspection and by culture.

Walmart phones with prepaid service hours - about $25 when I bought one
last year. That's a throwaway price compared to contest costs and
sailplane expenses; of course, you could save it for the next contest.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Eric responds, "We seem to be down to "I want it because I want it."

Eric, you have got to be kidding me. We want it because it can save someones life and the chance of someone cheating effectively (almost zero) is MEANINGLESS when compared to safety.

Wow, we are miles apart here Eric.

On the Android platform: https://market.android.com/details?i...ahorizon&hl=en

On the iPhone platform: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airpl...385491648?mt=8

Any questions? How many US Contest Pilots cheated last year? I did! Yes, I am a cheater. Fess up everyone. Cheaters! ;-)

Any of us could EASILY download these apps once the canopy is closed and delete it before we open the door when we land.

This speaks nothing of the wealth of weather data we can all get from mobile phones.

Check.

This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

My view on enforcement, etc.

We don't have detailed scrutineering now. We rely a lot on pilot
honesty.

Honesty is helped a lot by a feeling that everybody else isn't doing
it. Right now, US contest pilots don't cloud fly.

With that in mind, the rules really can't let you have a big honking
artificial horizon in the middle of the panel. And you can't have an
installed insturment that uses gyros and provides similar, serious,
cloud-flying ability. Not just might it tempt you, but its presence
might lead others to suspect that they have to cloud fly to keep up
with you.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to cloud fly using a GPS moving map,
or your iphone, or watching a pendulum. It's also possible to sneak
off on to other frequencies and team fly, or use your iphone to look
at the visible satellite loop, or sneak in walkie talkies to team fly.
If you do that, you're nuts, and you know you're cheating. There's no
prize money or groupies. There's also no paid staff of CDs and
scrutineers. For the moment at least, all these options are so
unreliable that it's really not worth putting in the enforcement
costs. Enforcement is, we just don't do stuff like this.

If you're thinking about cheating, think about the glory of winning
one contest vs. the lifelong shame of being caught cheating.


I think some of us need to get out and go flying before cabin fever
gets any worse. I know I do! Three "currency" flights in an ASK21
last weekend were the most fun I've had in months.

John Cochrane

On Feb 15, 12:56*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

My view on enforcement, etc.

We don't have detailed scrutineering now. We rely a lot on pilot
honesty.

Honesty is helped a lot by a feeling that everybody else isn't doing
it. Right now, US contest pilots don't cloud fly.

With that in mind, the rules really can't let you have a big honking
artificial horizon in the middle of the panel. And you can't have an
installed insturment that uses gyros and provides similar, serious,
cloud-flying ability. Not just might it tempt you, but its presence
might lead others to suspect that they have to cloud fly to keep up
with you.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to cloud fly using a GPS moving map,
or your iphone, or watching a pendulum. *It's also possible to sneak
off on to other frequencies and team fly, or use your iphone to look
at the visible satellite loop, or sneak in walkie talkies to team fly.
If you do that, you're nuts, and you know you're cheating. There's no
prize money or groupies. There's also no paid staff of CDs and
scrutineers. For the moment at least, all these options are so
unreliable that it's really not worth putting in the enforcement
costs. Enforcement is, we just don't do stuff like this.

If you're thinking about cheating, think about the glory of winning
one contest vs. the lifelong shame of being caught cheating.

I think some of us need to get out and go flying before cabin fever
gets any worse. I know I do! *Three "currency" flights in an ASK21
last weekend were the most fun I've had in months.

John Cochrane

Thanks for the common sense point of view John.

John,

I will be the first to admit that you are an extremely smart guy. I would not raise my hand to go up against you in Jeopardy any time soon. I greatly enjoy reading your outstanding soaring articles and have tremendous respect for your many insights within our sport.

I 100% agree that the honor system is the right way to proceed forward. Essentially that has been the case even with this rule historically in place and the recent reminder to the contest pilot community from the SSA Rules Committee. I believe that it would be much easier (and safer) for everyone, at this point, to simply allow everyone to install or keep any existing AH or T&B enabled instrument they currently fly (about 15 people I know flew with AH or T&B in various regional contests last year and were entirely unaware of the specifics of this rule). Let the honor system work.

I believe the vast majority of our soaring colleagues are extremely honest, would never willingly cheat for any reason and are primarily concerned with safe flight for themselves and their fellow pilots. As of right now we have butterfly (vario) removing their AH capability for the SSA rules committee, but 4-5 other instruments from various manufacturers (LK8000, XC Soar, Iphone, Andriod, LX8000, LX 9000, etc, etc) are going to need the same oversight. Its going to go on and on and on.

I think I have already proven that this rule is entirely unenforced, unenforceable and noneffective in general. Technology is going to move faster than our rules committee can follow. This is what is happening now and why there is so much debate today. If you really think about it (by definition of the current rule) almost every SSA competition pilot cheated for the past 2-3 years by having their GPS and accelerometer/gyro equipped iPhone or Android phone on board (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhon...ardown/3156/1).

If somebody really wants to cheat and cloud fly this season it could be done with more and more ease each season as new and improved electronics are released. It would not be hard to do now if someone really wanted to do it. The manufactures own customers are asking for the AH capability for safety reasons (very efficient and slick to integrate into the multi function displays of modern instruments) and the manufacturers want to deliver this value. The current AH/T&B ban rule creates are real conflict with innovation.. To spend all this effort disarming all and any upcoming instrument is going to be extremely difficult for pilots and committee members (all to prevent one yahoo from cheating whom the rule wont stop from doing so as it is currently enforced and written). It could also invite some extremely ugly protests, etc.

Sincerely,

Sean
F2

As so many before me have already said in one form or another: "It's
extremely unlikely to be sucked into a cloud if you maintain legal
separation." Likewise, if you cheat you'll know you did it and will feel
crappy about it forever - that is if you're an honest person to start with.


"Sean Fidler" wrote in message
news:24861166.122.1329338510874.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yncd8...
John,

I will be the first to admit that you are an extremely smart guy. I would
not raise my hand to go up against you in Jeopardy any time soon. I
greatly enjoy reading your outstanding soaring articles and have tremendous
respect for your many insights within our sport.

I 100% agree that the honor system is the right way to proceed forward.
Essentially that has been the case even with this rule historically in place
and the recent reminder to the contest pilot community from the SSA Rules
Committee. I believe that it would be much easier (and safer) for everyone,
at this point, to simply allow everyone to install or keep any existing AH
or T&B enabled instrument they currently fly (about 15 people I know flew
with AH or T&B in various regional contests last year and were entirely
unaware of the specifics of this rule). Let the honor system work.

I believe the vast majority of our soaring colleagues are extremely honest,
would never willingly cheat for any reason and are primarily concerned with
safe flight for themselves and their fellow pilots. As of right now we have
butterfly (vario) removing their AH capability for the SSA rules committee,
but 4-5 other instruments from various manufacturers (LK8000, XC Soar,
Iphone, Andriod, LX8000, LX 9000, etc, etc) are going to need the same
oversight. Its going to go on and on and on.

I think I have already proven that this rule is entirely unenforced,
unenforceable and noneffective in general. Technology is going to move
faster than our rules committee can follow. This is what is happening now
and why there is so much debate today. If you really think about it (by
definition of the current rule) almost every SSA competition pilot cheated
for the past 2-3 years by having their GPS and accelerometer/gyro equipped
iPhone or Android phone on board
(http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhon...ardown/3156/1).

If somebody really wants to cheat and cloud fly this season it could be done
with more and more ease each season as new and improved electronics are
released. It would not be hard to do now if someone really wanted to do it.
The manufactures own customers are asking for the AH capability for safety
reasons (very efficient and slick to integrate into the multi function
displays of modern instruments) and the manufacturers want to deliver this
value. The current AH/T&B ban rule creates are real conflict with
innovation. To spend all this effort disarming all and any upcoming
instrument is going to be extremely difficult for pilots and committee
members (all to prevent one yahoo from cheating whom the rule wont stop from
doing so as it is currently enforced and written). It could also invite
some extremely ugly protests, etc.

Sincerely,

Sean
F2

On Feb 15, 12:56*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

My view on enforcement, etc.

We don't have detailed scrutineering now. We rely a lot on pilot
honesty.

Honesty is helped a lot by a feeling that everybody else isn't doing
it. Right now, US contest pilots don't cloud fly.


John Cochrane

John, you, as my friend, will allow me to ad this to your post.

Sportmanship is the word that has been missing on some of these
posts.

Sportsmanship typically is regarded as a component of morality in
sport, composed of three related and perhaps overlapping concepts:
fair play, sportsmanship and character. Fair play refers to all
participants having an equitable chance to pursue victory and acting
toward others in an honest, straightforward, and firm and dignified
manner even when others do not play fairly. It includes respect for
others, including team members, opponents, and officials. Character
refers to dispositions, values, and habits that determine the way that
person normally responds to desires, fears, challenges, opportunities,
failures, and successes, and is typically seen in polite behaviors
toward others, such as helping an opponent up or shaking hands after a
match. An individual is believed to have a “good character” when those
dispositions and habits reflect core ethical values.


Sportsmanship is an aspiration or ethos that a sport or activity will
be enjoyed for its own sake, with proper consideration for fairness,
ethics, respect, and a sense of fellowship with one's competitors.

We stand alone on our acts yet the respect and camaraderie we have
towards each other comes from the sportsmanship we display during
events inwhich we enjoy being envolved in. Thier can be no sport
without sportmanship.

Thomas Kelley #711.